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Old 09-18-2018, 05:55 PM   #4941
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Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
I wouldn't say the USA is meddling per say. They aren't hiding their desire for the referendum to succeed and for Macedonia to join NATO. They have publicly and openly expressed those desires. There is nothing on their part going on behind the scenes to push this over the line, mostly because there is no need for it.

Russia hasn't done much either except try to finance some of their own resistance movements, mainly that of Bachev, and the occasional online crap that they engage in.

The position of both sides is plainly clear. If you guys got more directly involved you would see that both sides ability to significantly impact anything is very small. We are doing a bang up job of fucking this up with out any outside help.

Is that what you guys are going to say come October 1st? That this succeeded because of the Americans?
I don't know Gocka...

From the 2001 war when America was labeling the terrorists as "terrorists" then switched to labeling them as insurgents and pushing for Macedonia to negotiate with terrorists. I pretty much made up my mind of what game the US plays with respect to their foreign policy.

The countless times certain US senators openly have called for the idea of Macedonia being partitioned doesn't ease my view either.

Some US defense experts have openly flirted with the idea in US congressional hearings to Ethno-territorial partition not only Kosovo, Bosnia and Macedonia. This is also with the right for these new partitioned states to later join neighboring states.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:58 PM   #4942
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I don't find it strange because this is common practice and there is nothing covert or even dishonest about it. Coercion requires an unwillingness on the part of the other party. Who is being coerced? The certainly not the Zaev government, who wants this succeed just as much as the Americans do. The Macedonian people aren't being coerced either, at least not by the Americans, but frankly not even by their own government.
Western politicians are openly saying that there is no alternative for Macedonia, Coercion yes no?. Do you believe that Zaev would be PM or in jail if it wasn't for the wiretaps? Don't you think its a bit coincidental a year later we are not only changing our name but everything? Are the local people not being coerced? really? Didn't we read the other day that both SDSM and VMRO want to lay charges against Belchev for jumping on a military jeep? aren't people being thrown in jail for petty crimes, Aren't tenders and jobs being dispersed as we speak?

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What is so bewildering about the USA wanting Macedonia to be part of NATO, the Macedonian government wanting to be part of NATO, a probable majority of the Macedonian people wanting to be part of NATO and then the American government helping in the PR campaign to make it a reality?
This is very bewildering, please advise in measurable and logical terms how Macedonia will benefit economically or politically by joining a fascist organisation called NATO, or provide an alternative example of success? or is it a case of making an offer we cant refuse? you know, let our Albanian buddies run lose in the mountains or what?

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Can we really blame the Americans for looking after their interests? Isn't the blame on the group of people who decided that this was a good idea? I've yet to see a Macedonian with a gun to their head over this.
We can't blame the Americans for looking after their gay interests. If there is no gun then what's the incentive for us to join NATO? The last time I checked democracy was a unicorn flying around in the sky.

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Isn't Russia hoping to derail the referendum on behalf of her own interests of splitting NATO apart? Russia's interests might align with ours on this matter, but isn't what they are doing meddling just the same? The fact that we are weak and useless and incapable of an influence doesn't mean we wouldn't if we could.
I've seen no concrete evidence to suggest as such besides American propaganda from news outlets funded by corporate America.

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The simple fact remains that all of those things are background noise, and exist in every country in the world. In the end if the will of the people is set on something, there is nothing outside parties can do. To be honest nothing dramatic is going on, neither from the Russians or the Americans, that goes to show how much either party really gives a shit.
Why now? if not dramatic why the urgency 27 years later? yes I agree that there are lot of pathetic Macedonians around. But people are a dismissing the main fact that we are not only changing the name, we are writing off our history, culture and the suffering of our people for no good reason and for no gain..

To summarise i'd say the Macedonians have been coerced and conditioned to the status quo supported by western governments.
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Old 09-18-2018, 06:57 PM   #4943
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The fact that EU officials are saying that if the referendum fails or is boycotted then Macedonia will be isolated for years is coercion to say the very least and blatant emotional blackmail
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Old 09-18-2018, 07:40 PM   #4944
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Nobody cries that the US or EU diplomats are coming out in droves to openly show their backing, imagine if China or Russia came of nowhere and visited the "Bojkot" camp encouraging their support.
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Old 09-18-2018, 07:50 PM   #4945
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Although there is no definite way to ascertain this, accept maybe come voting day, by all accounts it seems like there is a slight majority that are for it. What was the biggest gathering on the anti referendum side? This is exactly like the US election in 2016. People are generally embarrassed to openly admit that they are in support of this, talk to them privately, one on one, and you will quickly realize that although a vast majority would rather not change the name, that takes a backseat to their dreams of joining the EU and that somehow having a direct impact on their wallets. I'm not proud that people feel that way, but I'm not going to delude myself just because its uncomfortable to face the reality. Talk to people one on one and you will very rarely get a definitive NO, I am against it at all costs period, most people will squirm around the question and tell you how they don't want a name change, but as them directly if they will vote NO and you get a very uncomfortable answer. What about the 30%-35% percent that are not ethnic Macedonians, we may not like it, but they also have a say so long as the referendum is allowed to continue.

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I don't buy into this notion that a majority of the Macedonians are for this. Especially not when the biggest gathering that could be mustered up by the "Za" camp was 10,000 people, from across all of Macedonia, 7,000 of whom were not ethnic Macedonians and of the few Macedonians who went, some did so for the free bus ride and feed.

I can't see it getting anywhere near 900k turning up to vote on the day.
This has been discussed at length on another thread so I won't go too much into it other than to say they had egg all over their face for supporting them in Kosovo, then when the shit hit the fan in Macedonia they had to delicately play both sides of it. They didn't want Macedonia to fall apart because of it, but they also couldn't be in contra to the very people they supported hardly a year before that. Kosovo was in its infancy and they just wanted the conflict in Macedonia to end as soon as possible and as quietly as possible. Had we seen that coming and dealt with it swiftly and decisively, I can assure you we would not be having this conversation, the USA had no intention of unleashing the Kosovars upon us.

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I don't know Gocka...

From the 2001 war when America was labeling the terrorists as "terrorists" then switched to labeling them as insurgents and pushing for Macedonia to negotiate with terrorists. I pretty much made up my mind of what game the US plays with respect to their foreign policy.
The only one I can recall was not even a senator, it was a rep Dana Rohrabacher and he is a fucking retard that no one takes seriously. He has had his shares of idiotic comments on many topics.

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The countless times certain US senators openly have called for the idea of Macedonia being partitioned doesn't ease my view either.


There isn't an alternative. Why do you think so many people are jumping on this? For 30 plus years the country has done nothing but fall further and further behind. In the eyes of the people they do see this as the only hope, they certainly don't need to be coerced to believe that, they already do. There is no viable opposition party in Macedonia, and no one has presented an alternative path to economic success. That is the truth whether we like it or not. I don't care that there isn't an alternative, I don't think its worth compromising our identity over, but we can sit here and pretend like there is anything else on the table at this time. We can just create alternative realities every time we don't agree with something.

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Western politicians are openly saying that there is no alternative for Macedonia, Coercion yes no?
Yes I do. He was largely elected by city folk, college educated youth, former communists, and minorities. The reason he was elected was because of the brazen corruption and stagnation under Gruevski for a decade. Again, I don't like it, its embarrassing that he is still breathing given the blatantly anti Macedonian things he says on a daily basis. I can't just close my eyes and pretend that people didn't vote for him. They did, I know many of them, none of them were forced to do so. Do you know how hard it was for him to get elected given the tight grip DPMNE had on state employees and the state apparatus? Do you know how many former DPMNE voters would now vote for SDSM because they are in control of the jobs? How do you think DPMNE went from being in control of everything to now hiding in the corner with their tails between their legs. Because they no longer control the handouts and the jobs, which means the votes. Its not coincidental given that Zaev talked about all of this during the campaign, PEOPLE STILL VOTED FOR HIM. The wire taps helped a lot, but they were all TRUE. It was the corruption and ineptitude of the predecessors that led to Zaev's victory, Gruevski couldn't stay in power forever, and neither will Zaev.

[quote Do you believe that Zaev would be PM or in jail if it wasn't for the wiretaps? Don't you think its a bit coincidental a year later we are not only changing our name but everything?[/quote}


They won't benefit, that is plainly obvious to anyone with half a brain. That doesn't mean they are being forced, it just means they don't have at least half a brain. Again just because we don't like or even understand the reality, doesn't mean its not real. Everything we don't agree with is not a complex conspiracy. Have you ever talked to an average Macedonian? It takes all of 5 seconds to realize these people are dumb peasants who will do anything if they think it will lead to more money.

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This is very bewildering, please advise in measurable and logical terms how Macedonia will benefit economically or politically by joining a fascist organisation called NATO
No one wants to admit the uncomfortable truth that most Macedonians don't need to be threatened. All you need to do is tell them the EU will bring bags of money straight to their doorsteps.

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or provide an alternative example of success? or is it a case of making an offer we cant refuse? you know, let our Albanian buddies run lose in the mountains or what?

You constantly make the assumption that if you have a certain point of view, then everyone must have the same point of view, or if they don't they are being forced to go along with something else. Why is it so hard to believe that Macedonian leadership and citizens want NATO and EU membership. What me or you think about that means nothing, even whether the EU and NATO bring benefits to Macedonia means nothing if the people want it. Why is it so hard to accept that they are just stupid?


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We can't blame the Americans for looking after their gay interests. If there is no gun then what's the incentive for us to join NATO? The last time I checked democracy was a unicorn flying around in the sky.

You aren't going to find any because you don't want to believe it. That is the common thread in people who latch on to conspiracies. They do so because they want their beliefs affirmed, no challenged. They don't like the reality of things and they isolate themselves from anything and everything that challenges their belief system. I know you know people in Macedonia, I know you have been to Macedonia. Think about the people you met and saw, do you really think it is that shocking that they would go for this? These are the same people who have sold out their country and identity time and time again.

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I've seen no concrete evidence to suggest as such besides American propaganda from news outlets funded by corporate America.

Why not now? Its been 30 fucking years beating around the bush. I'm surprised it took this long. How can you say their is urgency after something took 3 decades to come to a head?

[quote[Why now? if not dramatic why the urgency 27 years later? yes I agree that there are lot of pathetic Macedonians around.[/quote]

I'm not dismissing it, you are not dismissing it, but have Macedonians ever taken their history seriously? Didn't we give up our flag 20 plus years ago? Have Macedonians ever acted patriotic and done logical things? Go back over the last 30 years and it has been embarrassment after embarrassment. And what, every time it was the Americans? Come on, this is a fucking disaster but trying to find a scapegoat is pointless. I agree that there is no gain here, even economic, but most Macedonians don't see it that way.


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But people are a dismissing the main fact that we are not only changing the name, we are writing off our history, culture and the suffering of our people for no good reason and for no gain..
You only say they have been coerced because you don't want to admit that they are cowards and sellouts. Their lazy and corrupt mentalities have bankrupted their country. Their willingness to sell their votes for a job have made it impossible for an honest political party to come to power. They have already decimated our country and identity, this is just one more nail in the coffin. If you think Macedonians haven't also benefited from their lazy and corrupt way of life, then you either don't know them that well or are intentionally insulating yourself form reality. They have lived lazy and relaxed lives for generations, and now finally they have nothing left but to sell the farm.

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To summarise i'd say the Macedonians have been coerced and conditioned to the status quo supported by western governments.
Give it 5 years, and when nothing changes the same lazy idiots that supported Zaev will be calling for his head when they realize they are not getting showered with money form the heavens.
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Old 09-18-2018, 07:53 PM   #4946
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They should. Why doesn't Russia come out of the shadows and openly support Bojkot, and make their position known. I actually think it might help the situation give the propensity of cuckold Macedonians to always latch on to outside parties. If Russia openly supported the Bojkatiram campaign in a transparent way, and committed to being an alternative to the EU, then I actually think Macedonians might gravitate towards that. The reality is that Russia has nothing to actually offer and really just wants to steer Macedonia away from NATO. Even so I think they could give a boost to the anti referendum movement.

You ignore the simply fact that the government of the country is asking for it. You have to assume that the elected government is the will of the people. I don't get what you guys expect them to do? Why is it so sinister for them to openly support something that they have always openly supported. How is this a shock to anyone?

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Nobody cries that the US or EU diplomats are coming out in droves to openly show their backing, imagine if China or Russia came of nowhere and visited the "Bojkot" camp encouraging their support.

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Old 09-18-2018, 08:31 PM   #4947
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I don't buy into this notion that a majority of the Macedonians are for this. Especially not when the biggest gathering that could be mustered up by the "Za" camp was 10,000 people, from across all of Macedonia, 7,000 of whom were not ethnic Macedonians and of the few Macedonians who went, some did so for the free bus ride and feed.
I don't think it's possible to measure the sentiment based on who hopped in a bus. RoMacedonians are exquisitely skilled at the art of doing fuck all.

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I can't see it getting anywhere near 900k turning up to vote on the day.
Given RoMacedonians are exquisitely skilled at the art of doing fuck all. I agree.
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Old 09-18-2018, 08:40 PM   #4948
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I will say that it succeeded largely because of the inherent stupidity of the Macedonians themselves but I will also acknowledge the great lengths that the USA went to in order to ensure said victory.

I still find it unusual that you (and others) don't find it strange that a procession of US officials (and those of their western partners) are making a bee line for Skopje in the lead up to the vote, I think its interesting almost bewildering that you (and others) don't see this as a form of coercion at best and a complete meddling in the affairs of a sovereign (for want of a better word) state at worst.
I agree.
However, I am not sure it is only USA. But we all hope Macedonia can see through this bullshit at some point.

Having spoken with politicians at length, I think many of their most passionate beliefs are as firmly rooted as farts in the wind. Unfortunately it is power and influence that attracts people to politics, not ethics or notions of liberty. The fat lady is singing Severno Makedonsko Devojce right now.
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:47 PM   #4949
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I agree.
However, I am not sure it is only USA. But we all hope Macedonia can see through this bullshit at some point...
Definitely not just the USA...but everything is orchestrated by those cunts, everyone else simply dances to their tune.
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Old 09-18-2018, 11:02 PM   #4950
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Definitely not just the USA...but everything is orchestrated by those cunts, everyone else simply dances to their tune.
Surely the EU is playing its own games with Macedonia for slightly different reasons. I think what's happening in Macedonia is more akin to a gangbang.
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