Who are the Slavs? - Citations and Sources - Page 21

Risto the Great · 10-14-2011, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelister

There are many problems associated with using the term. The use of the term 'Slav' as any kind of identifier is a distortion.

Is "Slavic" as a language identifier or grouping a distortion in your mind?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelister

This gradual 'Slavicisation' of the Macedonians has to stop.

Can you give any examples of this? When do you think it commenced?

George S. · 10-14-2011, 12:34 AM

Isn't it really pointless to argue why don't we just call our language Macedonian & call ourselves mMcedonian.Why because look at what all those scholars & linguists have found that all those languages veneti ,eneti,brygian,pghrygian etc point to the preexistence of a slav language from the begining.THe words are virtually the same to the macedonian language so in reality we can stop arguing as to slavs.We speak macedonian & we are macedonian.THe slav language & macedonian language are similar.

George S. · 10-14-2011, 12:41 AM

i think the reason for this slavicisation is that people confuse the contribution the slavs have made merely linguistic & not in an ethnic sense.I think people are confusing the two & meaning in an ethnic sense & assume that the slavs absorbed or destroyed the macedonians.The macedonians assimilated the slavs.I suppose there have beeen different people through the balkans throughout the millenias & the y left their mark eg romans ,celts,huns;goths etcnot just slavs.
As i have said previously it is unfortunate that our enemies have chosen to pick on our idetity & twist it to their advantage.Also certain people within macedonia have focused only on the slavs & not on the bigger picture the outcome is an obscure picture of being slav only.

makedonche · 10-14-2011, 01:28 AM

[quote=George S.;111895]i think the reason for this slavicisation is that people confuse the contribution the slavs have made merely linguistic & not in an ethnic sense.I think people are confusing the two & meaning in an ethnic sense & assume that the slavs absorbed or destroyed the macedonians.The macedonians assimilated the slavs.I suppose there have beeen different people through the balkans throughout the millenias & the y left their mark eg romans ,celts,huns;goths etcnot just slavs.
As i have said previously it is unfortunate that our enemies have chosen to pick on our idetity & twist it to their advantage.Also certain people within macedonia have focused only on the slavs & not on the bigger picture the outcome is an obscure picture of being slav only.[/QUOTE]

George S
One only needs to look at the motivation for people/groups/countries doing something - the "why" of a particular action or series of actions, it gives you an insight into what they have to gain or retain from their actions, in the case of our southern neighbours it stands out very prominently to me that one of their motivations is holding onto territory that doesn't belong to them, another of their motivations is the saying "possesion is 9/10ths of the law", whereby items such as the Gold casket of the Macedonian monarchy is in their possesion therefore it must be Greek! It is in the Greeks best interests to refer to us as "Slavs", "SlavoMacedonian", "Skopians" - anything but Macedonians, because as soon as they concede that, then it opens a can of worms for them and puts their claims at high risk and challenges their assertions and throws doubt on thier identity/history and usurps their credibility(if they have any). In short - we are Macedonians, not "Slavs", our language is part of a larger group of languages known as "slavonic", anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is delusional, don't forget we are still writing our history, we are still digging it up as we type, there are older archaeological sites near Ohrid than there are in Greece, these will be rvealed in good time - they are still discovering layers of civilisations below other layers around Ohrid (I'll post some photos and info when I get a chance). George don't forget that "the truth shall set you free" it is not to be feared, but revered, hence "The Macedonian Truth Organisation"!

Risto the Great · 10-14-2011, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George S.

THe slav language & macedonian language are similar.

The Macedonian language is in the Slavic language group or family. There is no Slav language.

George S. · 10-14-2011, 02:21 AM

RTG isn't it confusing in one sense there is no slaV language THEN THERE IS A GROUP of family of languages.No wonder there is confusion.Of course there is no country like slav.
When i speak of a slav language i mean that it is only in the linguistic contribution sense.Also there is no slav ethnic sense.No wonder it's all confusing people through the ages was smearing macedonia with a tainted brush to say we aren't macedonian.

Delodephius · 10-14-2011, 03:15 AM

The more geographically two Slavic languages are, the higher the percentage of common words they have. Two neighbouring dialects, even if classified as belonging to a different language, are almost the same. Hence the so-called Dialectical Continuum of the Slavic languages.

As for the percentage, if two most geographically distant Slavic languages like Russian and Slovenian, which have no common history beyond their common origin, have a 80% common vocabulary (excluding foreign words and personal names) then how high is the percentage between two more geographically closer languages like Macedonian and Russian, who also share a common religion and a common liturgical language, which influenced both of them interchangeably (Macedonian influenced Russian via the Old Church Slavonic/Old Macedonian, and then Russian influenced Macedonian via Church Slavonic i.e. Russian Church Slavonic). Plus to that, language is only half its vocabulary. The other half is its grammar. And even though Macedonian and Bulgarian have evolved a different nominal declension in the last 1000 years and less (Old Macedonian had a full nominal declension), they have preserved most of the verbal conjugation, more than some other Slavic languages have. In short, Macedonian grammar is in the large part (the other part being its own unique inventions), and I don't know the exact statistics for it, a typical Slavic grammar, with its phonology, morphology and syntax (three key components of grammar) being not only just similar but in many cases quite the same as in other Slavic languages. Before you make rash conclusions without any knowledge of grammar or any other branch of linguistics, keep in mind that one language cannot simply be similar to another by the way of influence of the other language on it or vice versa. The root and trunk of Macedonian grammar, just like the grammars of all other Slavic languages, is of the same composition, i.e. they are the same from "down to up", not "up to down" like Albanian having over half of its vocabulary and grammar of Eastern Romance origin.

Soldier of Macedon · 10-14-2011, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George S.

RTG isn't it confusing in one sense there is no slaV language THEN THERE IS A GROUP of family of languages.

There is no Latin language of the Romans today either, but there are still Romance languages which derive from Latin. Ever heard a Spaniard or Frenchman spit the dummy because their languages were referred to as Latin, Romance, or, in an even broader context, Italic? Of course not.

julie · 10-14-2011, 07:33 AM

My past readings it was Macedonian influenced Russian via the Old Church Slavonic/Old Macedonian, St Clement in his missionary work as a student of Cyril and Methodius (it was not the Russians influencing the Macedonians there Delodephius.
St Clement set out to do this as the Apostle Paul came to Ohrid in 1AD to spread the gospel

There is also something else I would like to point out about these "migrations", to support my theory Macedonians, are part of the oldest "slav"ic language speaking group, and support my personal theory on Macedonians being from antiquity, including the language

"It is now generally agreed that the people who lived in the Balkans after the Slavic "invasions" were probably for the most part the same as those who had lived there earlier, although the creation of new political groups and arrival of small immigrants caused people to look at themselves as distinct from their neighbours, including the Byzantines".
Timothy E Gregory, A History of Byzantium. Wiley- Blackwell, 2010. Pg 169

George S. · 10-14-2011, 08:24 AM

Thanks Som so really slav is not really a language.To avoid confusion why don't we just call it Macedonian (macedonise the Slav)Then there won't be any confusion.But left like that
simply because we had some influence of slav. Some more than others Come to think of it we had a lot of different invaders visit us roman.celts,goths,huns, etc

10-14-2011, 12:34 AM	#202
George S. Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 10,116	Isn't it really pointless to argue why don't we just call our language Macedonian & call ourselves mMcedonian.Why because look at what all those scholars & linguists have found that all those languages veneti ,eneti,brygian,pghrygian etc point to the preexistence of a slav language from the begining.THe words are virtually the same to the macedonian language so in reality we can stop arguing as to slavs.We speak macedonian & we are macedonian.THe slav language & macedonian language are similar. Last edited by George S.; 10-14-2011 at 12:35 AM. Reason: ed

10-14-2011, 01:28 AM	#204
makedonche Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Macedonian Colony of Australia Posts: 3,242	[quote=George S.;111895]i think the reason for this slavicisation is that people confuse the contribution the slavs have made merely linguistic & not in an ethnic sense.I think people are confusing the two & meaning in an ethnic sense & assume that the slavs absorbed or destroyed the macedonians.The macedonians assimilated the slavs.I suppose there have beeen different people through the balkans throughout the millenias & the y left their mark eg romans ,celts,huns;goths etcnot just slavs. As i have said previously it is unfortunate that our enemies have chosen to pick on our idetity & twist it to their advantage.Also certain people within macedonia have focused only on the slavs & not on the bigger picture the outcome is an obscure picture of being slav only.[/QUOTE] George S One only needs to look at the motivation for people/groups/countries doing something - the "why" of a particular action or series of actions, it gives you an insight into what they have to gain or retain from their actions, in the case of our southern neighbours it stands out very prominently to me that one of their motivations is holding onto territory that doesn't belong to them, another of their motivations is the saying "possesion is 9/10ths of the law", whereby items such as the Gold casket of the Macedonian monarchy is in their possesion therefore it must be Greek! It is in the Greeks best interests to refer to us as "Slavs", "SlavoMacedonian", "Skopians" - anything but Macedonians, because as soon as they concede that, then it opens a can of worms for them and puts their claims at high risk and challenges their assertions and throws doubt on thier identity/history and usurps their credibility(if they have any). In short - we are Macedonians, not "Slavs", our language is part of a larger group of languages known as "slavonic", anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is delusional, don't forget we are still writing our history, we are still digging it up as we type, there are older archaeological sites near Ohrid than there are in Greece, these will be rvealed in good time - they are still discovering layers of civilisations below other layers around Ohrid (I'll post some photos and info when I get a chance). George don't forget that "the truth shall set you free" it is not to be feared, but revered, hence "The Macedonian Truth Organisation"! __________________ On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

10-14-2011, 02:21 AM	#206
George S. Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 10,116	RTG isn't it confusing in one sense there is no slaV language THEN THERE IS A GROUP of family of languages.No wonder there is confusion.Of course there is no country like slav. When i speak of a slav language i mean that it is only in the linguistic contribution sense.Also there is no slav ethnic sense.No wonder it's all confusing people through the ages was smearing macedonia with a tainted brush to say we aren't macedonian. Last edited by George S.; 10-14-2011 at 02:22 AM. Reason: edit

10-14-2011, 03:15 AM	#207
Delodephius Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Petrovecz Baciensis, Res Publica Iazygia Posts: 736	The more geographically two Slavic languages are, the higher the percentage of common words they have. Two neighbouring dialects, even if classified as belonging to a different language, are almost the same. Hence the so-called Dialectical Continuum of the Slavic languages. As for the percentage, if two most geographically distant Slavic languages like Russian and Slovenian, which have no common history beyond their common origin, have a 80% common vocabulary (excluding foreign words and personal names) then how high is the percentage between two more geographically closer languages like Macedonian and Russian, who also share a common religion and a common liturgical language, which influenced both of them interchangeably (Macedonian influenced Russian via the Old Church Slavonic/Old Macedonian, and then Russian influenced Macedonian via Church Slavonic i.e. Russian Church Slavonic). Plus to that, language is only half its vocabulary. The other half is its grammar. And even though Macedonian and Bulgarian have evolved a different nominal declension in the last 1000 years and less (Old Macedonian had a full nominal declension), they have preserved most of the verbal conjugation, more than some other Slavic languages have. In short, Macedonian grammar is in the large part (the other part being its own unique inventions), and I don't know the exact statistics for it, a typical Slavic grammar, with its phonology, morphology and syntax (three key components of grammar) being not only just similar but in many cases quite the same as in other Slavic languages. Before you make rash conclusions without any knowledge of grammar or any other branch of linguistics, keep in mind that one language cannot simply be similar to another by the way of influence of the other language on it or vice versa. The root and trunk of Macedonian grammar, just like the grammars of all other Slavic languages, is of the same composition, i.e. they are the same from "down to up", not "up to down" like Albanian having over half of its vocabulary and grammar of Eastern Romance origin. __________________ अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्। उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥ This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count. But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family. Last edited by Delodephius; 10-14-2011 at 05:30 AM.

10-14-2011, 07:33 AM	#209
julie Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: makedonska colonia Posts: 3,869	My past readings it was Macedonian influenced Russian via the Old Church Slavonic/Old Macedonian, St Clement in his missionary work as a student of Cyril and Methodius (it was not the Russians influencing the Macedonians there Delodephius. St Clement set out to do this as the Apostle Paul came to Ohrid in 1AD to spread the gospel There is also something else I would like to point out about these "migrations", to support my theory Macedonians, are part of the oldest "slav"ic language speaking group, and support my personal theory on Macedonians being from antiquity, including the language "It is now generally agreed that the people who lived in the Balkans after the Slavic "invasions" were probably for the most part the same as those who had lived there earlier, although the creation of new political groups and arrival of small immigrants caused people to look at themselves as distinct from their neighbours, including the Byzantines". Timothy E Gregory, A History of Byzantium. Wiley- Blackwell, 2010. Pg 169 __________________ "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev Last edited by julie; 10-14-2011 at 07:38 AM.

10-14-2011, 12:41 AM	#203
George S. Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 10,116	i think the reason for this slavicisation is that people confuse the contribution the slavs have made merely linguistic & not in an ethnic sense.I think people are confusing the two & meaning in an ethnic sense & assume that the slavs absorbed or destroyed the macedonians.The macedonians assimilated the slavs.I suppose there have beeen different people through the balkans throughout the millenias & the y left their mark eg romans ,celts,huns;goths etcnot just slavs. As i have said previously it is unfortunate that our enemies have chosen to pick on our idetity & twist it to their advantage.Also certain people within macedonia have focused only on the slavs & not on the bigger picture the outcome is an obscure picture of being slav only.

10-14-2011, 08:24 AM	#210
George S. Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 10,116	Thanks Som so really slav is not really a language.To avoid confusion why don't we just call it Macedonian (macedonise the Slav)Then there won't be any confusion.But left like that simply because we had some influence of slav. Some more than others Come to think of it we had a lot of different invaders visit us roman.celts,goths,huns, etc

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