Toynbee gives a death blow to the chauvinism of Greece

[Epirot]

Arnold Toynbee was a British historian who has authored twelve-volume analysis of the rise and fall of civilizations. Once maggotsontheweb promoted his views on the alleged Greekness of Macedonia. But, they intentionally did not see the reverse side of the coin. Toynbee criticized what he called as 'historical sentiment', that is arguments taken out from conditions that once existed or were supposed to exist, but which are no longer real at the present moment. According him, Greek nationalists insist so strongly on the traditions about Alexander the Great, though they have been buried with the drift of time. The annexation of Macedonia by Greece is compared with the similar annexation of Tripoli by Italy.


Nationality & the war, Arnold Joseph Toynbee, 1915

So even a historian with Greek sympathies, condemn the Greek chauvinism on Macedonia.

[George S.]

well put there Epirot i share the same senriments.The greeks will vietually say anything to hold on to macedonia.I think deep down they aren't as oblivious to everything they made out to be.

[cultea]

I can hardly get the point of post#1, but I would suggest you should have found a relevant thread (whichever that might be) and post it there. Or post it on this other forum you're referring to. This is the second time you're telling us "Hey, I was reading a conversation on another forum, so I'll post my answer here".
Also, your hilarious and maximalistic thread titles start to remind me of TrueMacedonian. "The… death blow to the chauvinism of Greece"??? Where is it? Were the "Greek chauvinists" aware of Toynbee's existence when he gave his... "death blow" back in 1915? I'm expecting something better from you, in your next thread, something like "The one and ultimate argument that will make all Greeks take their life".

[makedonche]

Originally Posted by cultea

I can hardly get the point of post#1, but I would suggest you should have found a relevant thread (whichever that might be) and post it there. Or post it on this other forum you're referring to. This is the second time you're telling us "Hey, I was reading a conversation on another forum, so I'll post my answer here".
Also, your hilarious and maximalistic thread titles start to remind me of TrueMacedonian. "The… death blow to the chauvinism of Greece"??? Where is it? Were the "Greek chauvinists" aware of Toynbee's existence when he gave his... "death blow" back in 1915? I'm expecting something better from you, in your next thread, something like "The one and ultimate argument that will make all Greeks take their life".

Cultea
Which part of this post are you having difficulties with? The fact you don't like it is irrelevant, the fact you don't like the title is irrelevant. Why don't you address the point of the post - Greek chauvanism" and prove it wrong or discredit it with factual information instead of rhetorical questions and statements which carry no relevance to the post!

@Epirot
Thanks for the information, feel free to post more if you can.

[cultea]

Originally Posted by makedonche

Why don't you address the point of the post - Greek chauvanism" and prove it wrong or discredit it with factual information instead of rhetorical questions and statements which carry no relevance to the post!

I don't get his argument. If "the drift of time had buried the tradition" there would be no "historical sentiment" or at least it wouldn't be powerful.
The ancient history of Macedonia and the glory of Alexander the Great were the main arguments of the Greeks and their main tool to "de-Bulgarize" the population.

[makedonche]

Originally Posted by cultea

I don't get his argument. If "the drift of time had buried the tradition" there would be no "historical sentiment" or at least it wouldn't be powerful.
The ancient history of Macedonia and the glory of Alexander the Great were the main arguments of the Greeks and their main tool to "de-Bulgarize" the population.

Cultea
If you don't get, fine, move on don't post about it. As for your arguments about the ancient history of Macedonia and the glory of Alexander the Great - irrelevant to this thread, youv'e already posted your views and opinions about that matter, if you keep posting this sort of response to information it will be classified as spam or trolling and you will disappear as a result of it. The thread is quite clear and simple, you can have your opinions on the subject and post your factual information or references to repudiate it, but don't try to derail the thread with irrelevance because you don't get it.

[Stojacanec]

Originally Posted by cultea

The ancient history of Macedonia and the glory of Alexander the Great were the main arguments of the Greeks and their main tool to "de-Bulgarize" the population.

????????

Hey? Where did you get this from. It makes no sense at all.

Care to start up a new thread and prove these claims you make.

[Onur]

Arnold Toynbee was one of the greatest historians of the recent century. He wrote several masterpiece books.

He had a pro-Greek stance b4 the WW-1 since he was a member of British nobility, so it was a quite normal behavior for people like himself. He was also a member of several pro-Greek organizations but after WW-1, he didn't approve the Greek invasion of Anatolia. Especially after seeing the massacres, rape and pillages of Greek army in aegean Anatolia, he was strictly against the British policy of Greece. Then he later become the enemy of Venizelos`s Greek state because of this.

[Voltron]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Onur

Arnold Toynbee was one of the greatest historians of the recent century. He wrote several masterpiece books.

Yes he did, he also wrote one regarding Turkey's extermination of indiginous ppls in Anatolia. Onur, I wont let you escape with your one-sided Greek bashing. For every piece of dirt you try to dig up I will provide you a mountain. I wouldnt really care so much if it wasnt for your arrogant attitude and your denial of your country's past attrocities. Dont try to speak from a higher ground. It just wont work.

Especially after seeing the massacres, rape and pillages of Greek army in aegean Anatolia, he was strictly against the British policy of Greece. Then he later become the enemy of Venizelos`s Greek state because of this.

"In one way or another, the Central Government enforced and controlled the execution of the scheme, as it alone had originated the conception of it; and the Young Turkish Ministers and their associates at Constantinople are directly and personally responsible, from beginning to end, for the gigantic crime that devastated the Near East in 1915."

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/toynbee.html

[Voltron]

Back on topic, I dont think comparing Tripoli to Macedonia is entirley correct. If we are to consider Ancient Macedonia to be ethnically Greek (which we do) then the reason slightly differs than the "Roman" one Italy used. Although he does make a point that things do change over time and to use past pretext's can be a dangerous path to follow.