Toynbee gives a death blow to the chauvinism of Greece

[Stojacanec]

Originally Posted by Voltron

. If we are to consider Ancient Macedonia to be ethnically Greek (which we do)

correction...we don't.

[Voltron]

^ I meant we as us Greeks. I know that you dont.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Voltron/Cultea, in nearly every thread you clowns are posting on, all we are reading is the false claim that Macedonia and her historical figures are Greek. We are well aware of the deluded positions that you hold, and we are well aware of how full of shit the both of you are. Furthermore, you are both well aware of the positions that we hold, given that we are actually Macedonians, and not Greeks, Vlachs or some Christian conglomerates with Asian ancestry, like you are.

I am positive that the both of you knuckleheads have read the rules of this forum and have taken note that one of them does not allow anti-Macedonian propaganda. Yet here you are, after a long spell of behaving like something that resembles 'normality', back to your old tricks again.

Get it through your thick skulls that this isn't the place where the ancestry of the Macedonian people is tarnished with manipulative lies, garbage and that pathetic Greek propaganda that you've both been regurgitating as of late. This is the place where the Macedonian point of view about their OWN people is given prevalence, because after all, that is their OWN history.

I think both of you will be going on a holiday very soon. And you won't be given any courtesy or explanation, because we have seen this sick little game that you two maggots are playing time and again from the previous maggots (or yourselves posing as alternative maggots) that have been on this forum. Quite frankly, I have not the time nor the patience to go through this cyclic stupidity once more. Ask yourselves why you're here. Is it to learn more about the real Macedonians, or to try and push through this fake 'Macedonian' trash that morons like yourselves hang on to as a geographical identity. To me, it seems like the latter. In which case, you serve no valid purpose here. The only Greek with half a brain on this forum at the moment is Agamoi Thytai, who, even though sharing similar opinions to yourselves, at least tries to respond with some sources and doesn't feel the need to continually harp on about the same trash with no substance. Or perhaps he is also going through a phase of 'normality' like you were not long ago.

[Epirot]

Originally Posted by cultea

I can hardly get the point of post#1, but I would suggest you should have found a relevant thread (whichever that might be) and post it there. .

Why do you have trouble to get the point? It's crystal clear: Arnold Toynbee who had a pro-Greek stance condemned the chauvinism of Greeks toward Macedonia. He was disgusted with the predatory goals of Greeks toward its neighbors.

Or post it on this other forum you're referring to. This is the second time you're telling us "Hey, I was reading a conversation on another forum, so I'll post my answer here".

The reason why I don't post on their forums is because I don't go to the sanitation of black waters. It's above all a matter of hygiene. They will ban you on the moment you expose something that goes against their mainstream. They are just a bunch of racists who applaud and encourage the racism of each other.

Where is it? Were the "Greek chauvinists" aware of Toynbee's existence when he gave his... "death blow" back in 1915?

Here I lost you! It's not the issue whether Greek chauvinists were aware of Toynbee's existence or not. Toynbee just noticed the wild chauvinism of Greece to conquer Macedonia on the name of 'historical sentiments'.

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Voltron/Cultea, in nearly every thread you clowns are posting on, all we are reading is the false claim that Macedonia and her historical figures are Greek. We are well aware of the deluded positions that you hold, and we are well aware of how full of shit the both of you are. Furthermore, you are both well aware of the positions that we hold, given that we are actually Macedonians, and not Greeks, Vlachs or some Christian conglomerates with Asian ancestry, like you are.

I am positive that the both of you knuckleheads have read the rules of this forum and have taken note that one of them does not allow anti-Macedonian propaganda. Yet here you are, after a long spell of behaving like something that resembles 'normality', back to your old tricks again.

Get it through your thick skulls that this isn't the place where the ancestry of the Macedonian people is tarnished with manipulative lies, garbage and that pathetic Greek propaganda that you've both been regurgitating as of late. This is the place where the Macedonian point of view about their OWN people is given prevalence, because after all, that is their OWN history.

I think both of you will be going on a holiday very soon. And you won't be given any courtesy or explanation, because we have seen this sick little game that you two maggots are playing time and again from the previous maggots (or yourselves posing as alternative maggots) that have been on this forum. Quite frankly, I have not the time nor the patience to go through this cyclic stupidity once more. Ask yourselves why you're here. Is it to learn more about the real Macedonians, or to try and push through this fake 'Macedonian' trash that morons like yourselves hang on to as a geographical identity. To me, it seems like the latter. In which case, you serve no valid purpose here. The only Greek with half a brain on this forum at the moment is Agamoi Thytai, who, even though sharing similar opinions to yourselves, at least tries to respond with some sources and doesn't feel the need to continually harp on about the same trash with no substance. Or perhaps he is also going through a phase of 'normality' like you were not long ago.

SOM, not too long ago I was flamed by a couple of my compatriots on AMAC forum stating my "capitulation" to your demands regarding my participation on this forum. Even though that couldnt be further than the truth its apparant that thats the perception that was given. I told you a million times that as for myself speaking there is no intention to come here and try to convert anyone or to try to convince anyone of my positions and is the reason why I do not post sources. Most of the time I just speak from the hip and it may seem to you as more of the same. I will be taking a holiday from here as you suggest, its obvious we are antagonizing each other at this point. Have a good one man and relax for fucks sake.

[Epirot]

Originally Posted by Onur

Arnold Toynbee was one of the greatest historians of the recent century. He wrote several masterpiece books.

He had a pro-Greek stance b4 the WW-1 since he was a member of British nobility, so it was a quite normal behavior for people like himself. He was also a member of several pro-Greek organizations but after WW-1, he didn't approve the Greek invasion of Anatolia. Especially after seeing the massacres, rape and pillages of Greek army in aegean Anatolia, he was strictly against the British policy of Greece. Then he later become the enemy of Venizelos`s Greek state because of this.

Well said Onur! This even happen to other historians and intellectuals who were once ardent sympathizers of Greek cause. For instance, Lord Byron and George Finlay were disgusted with the barbarism of their perfect "Hellenes" when they massacred Albanian and Turk Muslims of the besieged cities. Such cruelty was unseen before.
"Greek" nationalist historians can write whatever they want or suit to their nationalist agenda, but let be known to everyone that Ottoman regime was 100 times better than their rude rule. I am not glorifying Ottomans but I am asking myself why people used to live peacefully with each other in the Ottoman period of "Greece".

For five centuries Salonica was ruled by an empire, under the Islamic sultans in Constantinople, but it was generally inhabited by people of three religious faiths - Muslims, Christians and Jews. For the most part they lived peaceably.

Four years later, Greek armies ended Turkish rule. The Muslim population stayed put, only to be expelled in the aftermath of World War I as continued fighting between Greece and Turkey resulted in a population exchange: Greek communities evicted from Anatolia replaced them in the city. While Jews adapted to Greek rule, nationalist propaganda was a constant source of tension. Then came World War II, and the Germans. A community that had thrived for 450 years was almost annihilated in two months in 1943 at Auschwitz. Salonica had become wholly Greek, and has remained so ever since. At least, in part due to the swift intervention by British troops in 1944 blunting an armed Communist uprising, it did not end up on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain. Today it prospers once again.

The Ottoman era ended when Greek troops entered the city in October 1912. At this point, Mazower changes course, providing less a history of Salonica or of the interplay among its ethnic components than an account of the often difficult relations between, in particular, the Greek state and the city’s Jews.

At the time, just 25 percent of Salonica’s inhabitants were Greek Christians, a fact of great concern to its new rulers. As one officer observed, Salonica was a “gaudy city with all the tribes of Israel,” a place with “nothing Greek about it, nor European.” So the Greek government set about “Hellenizing” Salonica with the usual tools of the nationalist state, imposing the Greek language, which was known by few of the city’s residents, and changing street names.

An opportunity to do still more came in 1917, after the last of the great fires. With half of the population homeless, and most Jews without shelter, the Greek authorities swept away the charred remnants of the Ottoman city, replacing it with a French-style metropolis of broad, straight boulevards.

Engineering of a different sort was applied to Salonica’s population. New housing estates were filled with Greek Christian refugees. These had arrived in large numbers after World War I and the failed Greek attempt to resurrect the Byzantine Empire by conquering western Turkey. In 1923, the city’s Muslims were forced to move to Turkey as part of a population exchange. The minarets once vilified by a Greek journalist as “the symbols of a barbarous religion” were demolished, stripping Salonica of the most visible aspect of its Ottoman heritage.

With the Muslims gone, the Jews remained the only substantial non-Greek element in a city whose identity and appearance had changed drastically in just over a decade. Increasingly marginalized, many Jews emigrated. Most of those who remained met their end in 1943, with deportation to Auschwitz. As Mazower reports in his brief account, the Nazis (who had conquered Greece in 1941) succeeded in murdering over 90 percent of the 50,000 Jews living in Salonica on the eve of World War II.

http://www.arlindo-correia.com/221005.html

Let take an example: when Albanians established a semi-autonomous state (Pashalluk of Jannina which encompassed a vast area stretching from Central Albania down to the Attica), "Greek" was official language of administrate and culture, even though most of inhabitants knew no other language, but Albanian. When the Greek savages invaded Epirus, they not only expelled thousands of Albanian Muslims, but they even forbid the usage of Albanian in public.

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Epirot

They will ban you on the moment you expose something that goes against their mainstream. They are just a bunch of racists who applaud and encourage the racism of each other.

Thats a lie, nobody ever gets banned over there. The only time your banned is if your a complete troll that posts nothing but one liners.
Even in that case your given multiple warnings. You on the other hand do not fit in that category. So instead of circle jerking with other Greek haters, go show what you got Epiroti. Show some Besa.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Voltron

SOM, not too long ago I was flamed by a couple of my compatriots on AMAC forum stating my "capitulation" to your demands regarding my participation on this forum.

Your 'compatriots' at that forum are a bunch of racist donkeys. What they consider 'capitulation' is far removed from reality, so spare me the appeal for sympathy, because you know exactly what you're doing here.

I told you a million times that as for myself speaking there is no intention to come here and try to convert anyone or to try to convince anyone of my positions and is the reason why I do not post sources.

Yet you continue to spew up the same garbage. Why are you here?

[Voltron]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Yet you continue to spew up the same garbage. Why are you here?

I like debating different opinions. I dont have as much an interest in being in a forum where everyone agrees with each other.
Ive worked the boards in here and you would have noticed that I participate in threads that have nothing to do with Ancient Macedonia or the Macedonian issue. Ive discussed everything under the sun, but at times I do express my opinions on the very same matters that you find racist or historically incorrect. What can I say SOM, we differ in that area.

I wasnt going for sympathy either, im not a pussy.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Voltron

I like debating different opinions.

You're not debating, you're preaching trash, repetitively.

I dont have as much an interest in being in a forum where everyone agrees with each other.

One would have to be blind to suggest that everybody agrees with each other on this forum. Furthermore, one would have to be completely stupid if they think they can taint and negate the history of the Macedonian people and then try to claim it as difference in opinion. We don't need you to tell us the opinion of Greek chauvinists and racists. The internet is full of them, and their opinions, which are largely based on delusion, are unfortunately over-represented. This is a Macedonian forum, in case that fact slipped your mind. We are countering Greek racism, not providing it a platform. Everytime you or that 100-time recycled moron Cultea blabber on about the Macedonians and/or their history being Greek, is an insult to the Macedonian people. Keep pretending to be dumb, Voltron.

I wasnt going for sympathy either, im not a pussy.

That's great. Tell you're buddies at moron.com about it, you know, the one's who think you've 'capitulated' because you were able to call us Macedonians without having a nervous breakdown. Racist scum.