United Macedonia Diaspora

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  • Risto the Great
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 15658

    Why pick on the UMD? Why not.

    I have noticed myself feeling somewhat angry that a group purporting to represent me is not doing what I want. A simple answer is why not become more involved and help to influence the UMD's actions. It is certainly valid.

    But being so annoyed with the state of Macedonia and the mixed messages coming from its leaders, I see a dire need for constructive and thoughtful criticism coming from people that care about the future of the country.

    Let us pretend in fairy land that Macedonia becomes Northern Macedonia at the blink of an Ivanovian eye, would the UMD rename itself to UNMD? It aligns itself "steadfastly" with the people of Macedonia so it probably has little choice.

    Greece & Bulgaria make it very clear that our Macedonia nation and ethnic Macedonians are not desirable. This is war and our Diaspora representatives are comfortable with "dialogue". I am not. I accept we are not an island, and cannot maintain a complete isolationist policy. But I am also extremely sure this posturing by Greece and (more recently) Bulgaria is simply a game of poker that they hope to win through utter pomposity and wistful exuberance.

    If Macedonia does not want to be an island and insists on dialogue, then the need for a hard no-compromise edge is essential in an external organisation. We do not have one that maintains such a focus. Do we hope the UMD changes (or reveals) its colour OR de we create a new organisation that truly reflects the wishes of the Diaspora?

    With "the blink of an eye" an internet organisation can become very significant. I see no reason why the Macedonian Truth Organisation's "soldiers" cannot up the ante if nobody else is prepared to do it.

    Clearly the generally accepted wishes of the Diaspora need to be defined. Some wishes appear obvious to me:
    • Macedonia for the Macedonians.
    • No compromises on name or identity issues whatsoever.
    • Macedonia is the fatherland of Macedonians.
    • Traditions and culture of Macedonians must be preserved.
    • Language of Macedonians must be respected.
    • Ohrid agreement represents a dilution of Macedonian sovereignty and must be wound back.


    At this point, we should consider Arrow's impossibility theorem
    The framework for Arrow's theorem assumes that we need to extract a preference order on a given set of options (outcomes). Each individual in the society (or equivalently, each decision criterion) gives a particular order of preferences on the set of outcomes. We are searching for a preferential voting system, called a social welfare function, which transforms the set of preferences into a single global societal preference order.

    I am also reminded of a book called "The handbook for a positive revolution" written by Edward De Bono.
    Handbook for the Positive Revolution, a 1991 book by Edward de Bono, deals with concepts and practical application of: effectiveness, constructive way forward, respect, human values, self improvement and contribution as the way of empowering individuals. The title refers to the use of an open hand (pun intended) as a symbol of positive intentions, of the quiet, non-violant revolution in thinking, changing attitudes and altering perceptions. This revolution is to be inspired by the opportunities offered by the electronic age of information. [1] The little finger is used as a mnemonic device, to remind the participant, that even the smallest contribution is better than criticism. De Bono suggests that "The greatest strength of this serious revolution is that it will not be taken seriously. There is no greater power than to be effective and not taken seriously."
    The book was quite basic, yet provided a framework in my mind of a potential system that could ensure how negativity detrimental to the viability of Macedonia could be avoided. It would not be a bad thing to empower the Macedonian people. We have successive governments that have been unable to do it.

    Is the UMD capable of doing this?

    I invited some local (Adelaide) Macedonians to participate on this forum. I used an email from a sub-section of our local community with a mailing list that clearly indicated all the email recipients. I copied these recipients (the majority of whom I know personally) and invited them to join this forum. The response I received (forwarded to all recipients of my invitation) from the community representative was a complete distancing from my email and further protestations in the following manner:
    our organisation does not indorse (sic) any nationalistic or inhumane views that this particular forum is promoting, which undermines other people who are a non-Macedonian background, their safety, wellbeing (sic) or culture. We work and strive to create a space for learning around cultural issues, traumatic experiences, peaceful and positive strategies in dealing with any conflict at individual, relationship and community level.
    The above paragraph sounds like a UMD initiative in the making. Disappointingly, "nationalistic views" are deemed offensive and not worthy of endorsing.

    This is the VICTIM mentality that Macedonians have endured for about 2300 years now. Is anyone really ready to stand up? God forbid, the first thing that might happen will be self-respect.

    Rogi made a point yesterday about the "Macedonian cause" and its needs for a definition. It is always easier to say what something isn't. I am not sure if anyone has bothered to define what it isn't yet. But surely it is not abandoning our sovereign identity. This definition needs thought and is a worthy pursuit. It must not be vague as too many politicians and organisations have relied on ambiguous statements in the past. If we cannot be decisive, others will be decisive on our behalf. I am not prepared to accept this but I am sure that some Macedonians would accept this in accordance with the VICTIM mentality that is prevalent in modern Macedonian society.

    The first question is does anyone care?
    Clearly identifying a Macedonian cause or objectives is essential. Some breezy mission is not good enough. There must be some non-negotiable declarations.

    The second question is can we find enough people whose interests and concerns in relation to Macedonia are aligned?
    By identifying the objectives/cause, will we sideline too many people? We may be considered too offensive to many VICTIMS.

    The third question is what are you prepared to sacrifice as a consequence of caring?
    This comes at a cost. Financially, this post alone has cost me $300 of my chargeable time. We may not be welcome in Macedonia if we attack the Government. We may not be appreciated in our own households if we keep "fighting for Macedonia" instead of being with our families. These are all valid concerns and will impact upon what we are willing to do in relation to retaining and treasuring our wonderful Macedonian ethnic and national identity.

    The fourth question is is there enough capability amongst our people to break free from this VICTIM mindset?
    Yes there is.
    Risto the Great
    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

    Comment

    • Volk
      Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 894

      A destination is reached step by step not by teleportation that would result in dissolution of mater.

      You cant answer the hard questions therefor there is no need to go here AGAIN with you.
      Makedonija vo Srce

      Comment

      • Vangelovski
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 8531

        You're just as shallow as you were a year ago - havn't you read anything of value in the meantime? Why is it that so many Macedonians only have a very shallow understanding of self-determination and human rights? Why is that they don't understand how these concepts came about, why they are so important and why millions have risked their lives for them? Is it because you did not pay any attention at school? Have you not read any history books? Have you not read the Bible? Do you not pay any attention to current affairs?

        Self-determination and human rights are a fundamental human necessity that cannot be exchanged for ANYTHING, let alone false promises of a materialistic nature that NATO and the EU supposedly offer.
        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

        Comment

        • Volk
          Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 894

          Tom,
          Why stop with the abolishment of the agreement and accord? why not fight for our human rights and reclaim our lost Pirin and Aegean territories?
          So we can liberate our oppressed people that have sufferd so much under foreign yoke?
          Makedonija vo Srce

          Comment

          • Pelister
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 2742

            Originally posted by Volk View Post
            Nemoj da seris mnogu, stanuva mnogu dosadno i pocnuva da smrdi.
            What is clear from your posts on this thread is that you want to see a name change.

            That makes you a traitor to Macedonia.

            Comment

            • Volk
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 894

              What is clear from your posts on this thread is that you want to see a name change.
              So for not agreeing with your view that UMD are traitors, I myself am a traitor? boy your a genius! Tom da ne si igras pak so dva accounts?
              Makedonija vo Srce

              Comment

              • Vangelovski
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 8531

                Originally posted by Volk View Post
                Tom,
                Why stop with the abolishment of the agreement and accord? why not fight for our human rights and reclaim our lost Pirin and Aegean territories?
                So we can liberate our oppressed people that have sufferd so much under foreign yoke?
                You're finally starting to make some sense - though there are different ways to "fight" - too bad you're not up for any of them
                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                Comment

                • Pelister
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 2742

                  Originally posted by Volk View Post
                  Tom,
                  Why stop with the abolishment of the agreement and accord? why not fight for our human rights and reclaim our lost Pirin and Aegean territories?
                  So we can liberate our oppressed people that have sufferd so much under foreign yoke?
                  Volk. There are Macedonians in Albania, Greece and Bulgaria, already fighting for our human rights, as well as Macedonian in the rest of the diaspora assisting in this endeavor.

                  Comment

                  • Pelister
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 2742

                    You have summed it up perfectly RTG.

                    I have noticed myself feeling somewhat angry that a group purporting to represent me is not doing what I want

                    Comment

                    • Volk
                      Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 894

                      here are Macedonians in Albania, Greece and Bulgaria, already fighting for our human rights,
                      In greece, this is not enough as the state is busy creating and enforcing a new Macedonian identity comprised of turk settlers with aim to dilute our ability to gain these rights and secure our name.
                      Makedonija vo Srce

                      Comment

                      • Volk
                        Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 894

                        Nice post Risto

                        One thing that perplexes me how do we get rid of the framework agreement without starting a new war? It seems to me the albanians are looking for any excuse to start one as thier ultimate goal is to create 'ilrida'

                        Or is this a war we simply need? is there such thing? Do we ignore this? Or is this just a statement of principal?
                        Makedonija vo Srce

                        Comment

                        • Risto the Great
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 15658

                          Originally posted by Volk View Post
                          One thing that perplexes me how do we get rid of the framework agreement without starting a new war? It seems to me the albanians are looking for any excuse to start one as thier ultimate goal is to create 'ilrida'

                          Or is this a war we simply need? is there such thing? Do we ignore this? Or is this just a statement of principal?
                          This is the point.
                          Would any other country accept such a compromised agreement that strikes at the sovereignty of a nation so wickedly?

                          I am looking for an organisation that totally opposes the Ohrid Agreement in principle and in reality. Do we in the Diaspora need to make nice noises that we are interested in dialogue about the erosion of our identity for the sake of terrorists? Are we afraid of war with "Illirida"?

                          What is California doing about its Mexican minority? Why don't we adopt a purely American model to ensure consistency for the Yanks when they come to Macedonia?

                          We have no need to be nice, look at what has happened so far.
                          Risto the Great
                          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                          Comment

                          • Rogi
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 2343

                            Great post Risto!

                            For those unaware, I did begin writing a draft definition of the Macedonian Cause. Here is what I came up with, I'm hoping for all your feedback so we can write up the real and defined Macedonian Cause.


                            Bear in mind, this should be a document that should also show our descendants 100, 200 years and further into the future, what our cause was and what we believed in. It must be absolute and unwavering, it must not be something that can be interpreted in different way, etc.





                            Volk, on your question about how to get rrid of the Framework Agreement...

                            Well, our very first problem is that we have to all agree that we want to get rid of the Framework Agreement.

                            First step is that we have to all agree that it is a treacherous document.

                            Next we have to declare that our task, efforts and goal is to get rid of the Framework Agreement. So we now know we are working to get rid of the Framework Agreement.

                            Then and only then, can we actually begin working toward that and working out a plan on achieving that goal, and the differing routes that can be taken to achieving that.




                            I can tell you that everyone behind UMD for example believes the Framework Agreement is treacherous.

                            However, UMD as an organisation has not declared to work against it nor to get rid of it, rather it has been accepted.

                            There is no Diaspora-based organisation which has set a task to get rid of the Ohrid Agreement as one of the steps toward achievement of the goals of the Macedonian Cause.

                            The World Macedonian Congress, as a Macedonian organisation based in the Republic of Macedonia has set a goal to get rid of the Framework Agreement. It may even be the only organisation to do so.

                            The WMC was the initiator of the referendum in Macedonia, calling for the abolishment of the Framework Agreement. Though that initiative failed at referendum, they are at least taking an active approach to achieving that task.


                            So, now that we agree it is a treacherous document of which Macedonia must rid itself, and we agree that it is our task to get rid of that document, we work on a plan.


                            There are a number of alternatives, each which should be looked at in detail, and weighed up, and then acted upon. For example, one such possibility is to take certain parts of the Ohrid Agreement, or the entire document, to the Constitutional Court in Macedonia. Much like the Sorosoid NGO's have taken the 'baby bonus' Law in Macedonia to the Constitutional Court on that same basis sections like that of minority languages where minorities Constitute 20% of a population their language is the second official language - it can be argued as discriminatory against smaller minorities and there is basis for calls of its abolishment.

                            There are a number of options and it is not unrealistic to get rid of the Ohrid Agreement. The Albanians themselves are calling for the Ohrid Agreement to be abolished and a 'new Agreement' to be put in its place, whilst Macedonians are afraid to talk about getting rid of the Ohrid Agreement, accepting it as the 'reality'.

                            Imagine Martin Luther King accepting slavery as reality and leaving it as is...
                            Last edited by Rogi; 05-15-2009, 12:14 AM.

                            Comment

                            • Vangelovski
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 8531

                              Volk,

                              Rather than trying to convince everyone to accept your defeatist view of the world, why don't you learn something about how (and why) Macedonians inside ethno-historic Macedonia and in the diaspora are 'fighting' for human rights.
                              If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                              The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                              Comment

                              • Vangelovski
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 8531

                                Originally posted by Rogi View Post
                                There is no Diaspora-based organisation which has set a task to get rid of the Ohrid Agreement as one of the steps toward achievement of the goals of the Macedonian Cause.
                                Rogi,

                                There are many Diaspora organisations that oppose the Framework Agreement and the Interim Accord - from the very begining - some of them are in your own backyard (Sydney and now Canberra).
                                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                                Comment

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