A response from Vodenka

[Bratot]

Site prsti na rakata isto bolat - All the fingers on your hand hurt the same


From Vodenka words I could say that what she is striving for, doesn't have a common line with Macedonian collective aspiration and interest.

Macedonian matter cannot be seen as a problem of RoM, nor as a problem only of aegean Macedonians.
And by splitting up our common problem and seeking to solve it separately we are becoming weaker and we are doomed into a national failure.


This is more upseting when I read her saying that she can't accept official Macedonian identity and see it as "imposed" one.
To be honest..those words from a person claiming same ancestry as me... it hurts a lot.

I assume her reason is more politically motivated, to gain votes, to become a political subject which wouldnt be seen as a threat to Greece.
Oneself posibile only if Vodenka and her followers accept the Greek policy of denying the Macedonian character of R.of Macedonia.

I'm expecting to see it included in the greek tactic to promote the Greek-Macedonian identity as counter to us.


The way I see Vodenka here is from the words she typed, thats all.


With even bigger grief I can say that we have 'Vodenka' types of thinking in the Republic and that go inline with dividing Macedonians:

1. Moron N'1

2. Moron N'2

[Daskalot]

divide and conquer..... we Macedonians must be united whether we are from the Republic, Bulgaria or Greece does not matter.

[Risto the Great]

The situation between Slovaks in Serbia and Macedonians in Greece is different. First, we Slovaks in Serbia live in a poorer country than the Slovak Republic, Macedonians in Greece live in a wealthier country than the Republic of Macedonia. We here have far better human rights and we prosper in terms of language and culture while Macedonians in Greece don't even have basic rights to prosper. We are descendants of colonists who came here in 1745 while Macedonians in Greece are natives of the Aegean Macedonia. It is different.

Slovak, thanks for responding.
250 years after your ancestors arrived in Serbia, how closely do you identify with the country called Slovakia? You yourself have stated clearly they do not speak the same language as you. Are you concerned with day to day political affairs in Slovakia?

[Risto the Great]

Site prsti na rakata isto bolat - All the fingers on your hand hurt the same

Za primer, across the border, they would say s'ti .... the dark vowel was removed from the Republic's language. God forbid it sounded like modern Bulgarian (stolen from the Macedonians). Not hearing the dark vowel makes them think they are talking to Serbians. I can't help what they think, no matter how much I try to correct them. What they think is not helped by Vinozito. Therefore it is time for change or a new approach.

From Vodenka words I could say that what she is striving for, doesn't have a common line with Macedonian collective aspiration and interest.

Superficially I agree with you.
But if you think long and hard enough about it, the goals of Macedonians in Greece would end up in the same place. The goals of the Macedonian Republic appear yet to be defined and leave much room for improvement.

Macedonian matter cannot be seen as a problem of RoM, nor as a problem only of aegean Macedonians.
And by splitting up our common problem and seeking to solve it separately we are becoming weaker and we are doomed into a national failure.

I would prefer Macedonian friendly people right next to me on a border than Greeks. We are weakEST right now. As much as we hate Serbs for what they did to Macedonians, the language familiarity makes it difficult not to like the ordinary people (as opposed to the politicians). It could only improve.

This is more upseting when I read her saying that she can't accept official Macedonian identity and see it as "imposed" one.
To be honest..those words from a person claiming same ancestry as me... it hurts a lot.

No, she did not say that about herself. It is in fact much more upsetting to learn that most Macedonians from Greece feel that way. Whilst many Macedonians from the Republic insist the Macedonians from Greece should start a war before they afford them the slightest respect, let it be said that nothing has ever been mentioned (politically) about them in the Republic until last year. And it was indeed only a mention. So try to look at this rationally and see how loved the Macedonians of Greece feel. Even though it would appear everyone from the Republic and their dog appears to have some form of ancestry from Egej.

I assume her reason is more politically motivated, to gain votes, to become a political subject which wouldnt be seen as a threat to Greece.
Oneself posibile only if Vodenka and her followers accept the Greek policy of denying the Macedonian character of R.of Macedonia.

You assumed incorrectly. She was merely a member of Vinozito who left them because of her concerns with their methodology.

I'm expecting to see it included in the greek tactic to promote the Greek-Macedonian identity as counter to us.

I can't wait if that is the case. Could you imagine what their arguments could possibly be and how easily they could be deconstructed?

[osiris]

vodenka is expressing the reality on the ground in occupied macedonia, a diiference between the majority of the people in the 2 nations has developed, we may not like it but thats the reality.

i like vodenkas honesty and strentgh of character in recognising and expressing it, we should not bury our heads in the sand and live in a falnatsy, that will not help n change the situation.

most people are not driven by patriotism but , by the sturggle for every day ,existance as slovak has pointed out the citizesn in the republic are much poorer then in occupied macedonia and most people would not trade a better economic existance for a poorer one.

to change reality we must first be honest and strong enough to recongize it, other wise we will fail. vodenka is making intersting and valid observations about where the macedonians in egei stand and how they think and feel. i am hoping we soon see a new organisation whithin egei, whose analysis is like vodenkas. we need a multi pronged attack to succeed, vinozhitos activities alone are not enough for sucess.

[Daskalot]

I must ask the question, how do we keep fighting for our name when a part of us considers themselves to be something else.... the cause is lost. It is as simple as that, why even bother?

[El Bre]

I must ask the question, how do we keep fighting for our name when a part of us considers themselves to be something else.... the cause is lost. It is as simple as that, why even bother?

It's not as bad as all that D.

The Aegeans of today have had the myth of hellenism pounded into to them for 100 years, they've been made to feel like being related to anyone but Greeks is like being just one step above a rodent on the evolutionary chain.

But....

As like minded Macedonians, wherever we may be from, we need to work together to build a strong and properous Republic, then.... stand back and watch as the Nashi start coming out of the woodwork.

[Daskalot]

It's not as bad as all that D.

The Aegeans of today have had the myth of hellenism pounded into to them for 100 years, they've been made to feel like being related to anyone but Greeks is like being just one step above a rodent on the evolutionary chain.

But....

Like I've always said, as like minded Macedonians, wherever we may be from, we need to work together to build a strong and properous Republic, then.... stand back and watch as the Nashi start coming out of the woodwork.

words of wisdom, and the Republic is doing a fine work in promoting it self, just the other day I saw a TV add on Swedish television about Macedonia, it was about attracting investors... I was gladey surprised when I saw it. I will try and tape it if possible.

[El Bre]

In the meantime, I don't think it would hurt to build a community centre just north of the border where Egeici can go and hold functions, participate in activities and even learn the Macedonian language as their forebearers spoke it. Let them have a say in running the joint. Reach out to them, include them, make them feel a part something bigger.

[Bratot]

Za primer, across the border, they would say s'ti .... the dark vowel was removed from the Republic's language. God forbid it sounded like modern Bulgarian (stolen from the Macedonians). Not hearing the dark vowel makes them think they are talking to Serbians. I can't help what they think, no matter how much I try to correct them. What they think is not helped by Vinozito. Therefore it is time for change or a new approach.

Risto who is questioning the language in here?
Nobody expect from them to speak the literate Macedonian, nor me personally have any prejudgments for the aegean dialect since I am aware of it and I accept it.

This has apsolutelly nothing with what I'm trying to point out here.

Superficially I agree with you.
But if you think long and hard enough about it, the goals of Macedonians in Greece would end up in the same place. The goals of the Macedonian Republic appear yet to be defined and leave much room for improvement.

What are you trying to say because I don't know what is left to be defined for the Republic?

You wanna know for ex. how the R. of Macedonia can achieve the EU/NATO goals?

To give up of the aegean Macedonians, since they are the real problem of Greece and of course as a consequence of that..to "modify" our name.

So, according to you everyone should look for his own prosperity and to forged about who we are and where we all come from.

I would prefer Macedonian friendly people right next to me on a border than Greeks. We are weakEST right now. As much as we hate Serbs for what they did to Macedonians, the language familiarity makes it difficult not to like the ordinary people (as opposed to the politicians). It could only improve.

I still dont understand your point with the Serbs and the language.

Do you say that our Macedonians in the Aegean part sees us as SERBS?

That there is a language barrier between us or what?

No, she did not say that about herself. It is in fact much more upsetting to learn that most Macedonians from Greece feel that way. Whilst many Macedonians from the Republic insist the Macedonians from Greece should start a war before they afford them the slightest respect, let it be said that nothing has ever been mentioned (politically) about them in the Republic until last year. And it was indeed only a mention. So try to look at this rationally and see how loved the Macedonians of Greece feel. Even though it would appear everyone from the Republic and their dog appears to have some form of ancestry from Egej.

Could you please differ (wrong) policy/politicians from a national/ethnic feelings?

How can anyone "feel or not feel loved"as a Macedonian because of the politicians and their will, you can't put it that way its simply not right, its given by birth to be Macedonian and that what counts. You don't need politicians to love your ppl and to do your life duty as a Macedonian.

If the excuse should be as you said...the policy in the Republic, than I am still wondering ( I must admit it's a miracle ) how the hell there are still some Macedonians left in the republic.

You assumed incorrectly. She was merely a member of Vinozito who left them because of her concerns with their methodology.

You see, I don't care where she is/was a member of but what are her personal views.
If thats the case with her and with the rest of her followers, I don't see her/them as my ally.

I can't wait if that is the case. Could you imagine what their arguments could possibly be and how easily they could be deconstructed?

I don't have to imagine, I am sure of the argument they would use.

And it would be harder for us, outside of the Greek state to claim that we are Macedonians and there is a Macedonian minority in Greece, since our own ppl living in Greece DO NOT ACCEPT us to be same ethnicity with them.



For me it's an absurdity to defend her position, I'm very disapointed from this conversation. Never expected to hear something like this.

[Rogi]

I think the truth should be promoted, however hard it is to get it to our brothers and sisters in the occupied parts of Macedonia. That IS our struggle.

I disagree with the formation of a new ideology where Macedonians from the occupied parts of Macedonia are able to learn their language, but consider themselves as loyal 'Greeks' and eventually forget their ethnic identity.

Vodenka's suggestion is an 'easier' way to achieve some of the rights, but the expense of doing so is far greater than the victory to be achieved as it ends up promoting division between us. It also makes it less of a struggle and if there's no struggle, then we will make it much easier for the Greeks to completely assimilate us.

I believe the truth is what will really set us free.

[Risto the Great]

Bratot,
I don't think you could be more disappointed than I was when I first went there. All of your opinions are based on someone from the outside looking in. Whilst valid, they are of no significance whatsoever because they will not create the necessary changes that need to take place.

I accept that you have no pre-judgements about the Aegean dialects. But they do about the modern Macedonian language. I can't say I was particularly enamored with finally learning what "vetse" and "vikend" means. Do you want to get offended about it and abandon these people altogether? Or is it better to build bridges?

You are not sure what else needs to be defined for the Republic. How about the Republic's back against the wall in relation to the Ohrid Agreement? Are we happy with it? How are we going to sell that kind of capitulation to our lost brothers over the border? I guarantee they would rather be Macedonians (with rights) in Greece than Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia. If this is beyond comprehension for you, I cannot explain it any clearer.

You were suggesting I was talking about how loved the Macedonians of Greece were feeling from the politicians of Macedonia. I say it comes from everywhere. Only the Macedonians in the Diaspora really acknowledge how much we all have in common. Our own Priest who comes from Bitola and has Grandparents from my Father's village in Egej even called them Greeks when he first came to Australia. It took him a while to figure it out.

I understand you never expected to hear this. How will your disappointment end up Bratot? Will you choose to do nothing about it? That has been the case for about 100 years now. And nothing much has happened.

What do you propose?

[Risto the Great]

I think the truth should be promoted, however hard it is to get it to our brothers and sisters in the occupied parts of Macedonia. That IS our struggle.

I disagree with the formation of a new ideology where Macedonians from the occupied parts of Macedonia are able to learn their language, but consider themselves as loyal 'Greeks' and eventually forget their ethnic identity.

Vodenka's suggestion is an 'easier' way to achieve some of the rights, but the expense of doing so is far greater than the victory to be achieved as it ends up promoting division between us. It also makes it less of a struggle and if there's no struggle, then we will make it much easier for the Greeks to completely assimilate us.

I believe the truth is what will really set us free.

To quote someone famous Rogi ... "Can they handle the Truth?"

Where have minority languages been promoted in Greece? Give me one example to show me how it will not work. We have Arvanites and Vlachs who have lost their native languages. Yet somehow they attempt to call these people "types of" Greeks. Retaining the language will be a distinct departure from anything EVER done in Greece to date.

Will it really promote division? Especially when we have (staged event) linguists formally apologise for not embracing the dialects of the Southern Macedonians and reintroductions of some of these characteristics in the modern language (dark vowel, couple of words + remove English). As well as poetry readings from Egej etc. This will be the olive branch that is extended from the Republic. Imagine the potential of such a move. I can.

[Risto the Great]

As like minded Macedonians, wherever we may be from, we need to work together to build a strong and properous Republic, then.... stand back and watch as the Nashi start coming out of the woodwork.

I have always believed a strong and prosperous Republic is essential. And have done my best to support this. I do not expect the Macedonians of Greece to feel the same way ... yet.

[Rogi]

I don't know Risto, I don't think I have thought it all through yet... it is something that requires careful consideration and analysis because, although I can see many positives of going that route, there are also many substantial negatives.

For example, it does not work on rooting out the problem of division between Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia and Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia.

It somewhat promotes the views (for the Macedonians in the Aegean part of Macedonia) that they are the only Macedonians, the real Macedonians and these people across the border are something else, something completely unrelated.

Even if by going this route all goes well and the Macedonians in the Aegean part of Macedonia are free to learn the Macedonian language under the name 'local language' (as I believe the suggestion goes), as well as being free to express their culture and traditions, it may end up in a situation where the Macedonians from the Republic of Macedonia may seem to them, like they are trying to usurp their language, culture, history, etc (because the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia will be led to believe they are the only real Macedonians, more so than now) and it could create that situation where the Republic of Macedonia seems like the same predator that Bulgaria is to the Republic of Macedonia.

That could lead to irreversible ideological differences and we definitely divide the Macedonian people for good, in fact it could lead to two separate identities for the same people (hence why I say it could lead to the creation of grkomani).

It needs serious discussion and analysis, because it could be a great plan, or it could be a great disaster...