The dangers of a 'civic' State and Identity Theft

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  • Pelister
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 2742

    The dangers of a 'civic' State and Identity Theft

    Here is the official Greek line.

    This is essentially what they are telling Australian politicians behind closed doors, and Europeans.

    "In the Republic of Macedonia the noun ‘Macedonians’ identifies in the legal and civic sense all citizens of the Republic of Macedonia (including Albanians, Greeks, Roma…etc, and in an ethnic/national sense, a million and a half local Slav- speaking population. In Greece the noun ‘Macedonians’ identifies in the regional/cultural sense almost two and half million ethnic Greeks in the region of Greek (occupied) Macedonia. In Bulgaria the name Macedonia identifies in a regional sense, hundreds of thousands of ethnic Bulgarians. These three variants of the noun 'Macedonian' are also in use in diaspora by persons who have emigrated from the three Macedonian regions, namely Greek Macedonia, FYROM and the SW Bulgarian region of Pirin." p.8 'Makedonia: A Greek term in modern usage'
    Note: In this piece of propoganda the term 'Macedonian' denotes 'citizenship' to various natioanlities in the Republic of Macedonia, including Greeks and to 'Slavs', while in Greek occupied Macedonia it refers to 'ethnic Greeks'. A quick look at the history of the region in the last century clearly indicates that the Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia are indigenous to the region, and natives, while the 'ethnic Greeks' of Greek occupied Macedonia are colonisers, deliberately planted in the region from various parts of the world, to conquer it.

    This is an example of pure propoganda and identity theft in action.
  • Pelister
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 2742

    #2
    This is how the New Greeks, invaders and colonisers are spreading confusion throughout the world.

    New Greeks cannot complete their conquest without the political extinction of the Macedonian Republic.

    They spelled out their intentions here.

    Originally posted by Intentions of the Invading Greeks
    "whoever monopolises the Macedonian name might well claim title deeds to whatever is associated or defined by that name: the history, the culture, the peoples as well as the entire geographical region of Macedonia." p. 9 'Makedonia: A Greek term in modern usage'
    This includes land in the Macedonian Republic.
    Last edited by Pelister; 08-30-2010, 08:50 PM.

    Comment

    • Pelister
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 2742

      #3
      Anti-Macedonian position of Nimetz

      In 2005, following Mathew Nimets's submissions to the two parties his recommendations for resolving the issue - the draft for a new Security Council resolution read:

      "'Macedonia' has reference to a geographic area encompassing all or portions of several States in the region of Southeast Europe... that 'Macedonia' has importance to a long association with the heritage, culture and history of the Hellenic Republic and Hellenic People since antiquity, that 'Macedonia' is a name commonly used to refer to a region of northern Greece, and that the people of such region are, within the Hellenic Republic, customarily referred to as 'Macedonians'"
      Cited in 'Makedonia, A Greek term in modern usage' p.11
      Last edited by Pelister; 08-30-2010, 09:30 PM.

      Comment

      • Bratot
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 2855

        #4
        Originally posted by Pelister View Post
        Here is the official Greek line.

        This is essentially what they are telling Australian politicians behind closed doors, and Europeans.



        Note: In this piece of propoganda the term 'Macedonian' denotes 'citizenship' to various natioanlities in the Republic of Macedonia, including Greeks and to 'Slavs', while in Greek occupied Macedonia it refers to 'ethnic Greeks'. A quick look at the history of the region in the last century clearly indicates that the Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia are indigenous to the region, and natives, while the 'ethnic Greeks' of Greek occupied Macedonia are colonisers, deliberately planted in the region from various parts of the world, to conquer it.

        This is an example of pure propoganda and identity theft in action.
        Originally posted by Pelister View Post
        This is how the New Greeks, invaders and colonisers are spreading confusion throughout the world.

        New Greeks cannot complete their conquest without the political extinction of the Macedonian Republic.

        They spelled out their intentions here.



        This includes land in the Macedonian Republic.
        Originally posted by Pelister View Post
        In 2005, following Mathew Nimets's submissions to the two parties his recommendations for resolving the issue - the draft for a new Security Council resolution read:

        Cited in 'Makedonia, A Greek term in modern usage' p.11


        Let's work on this issue a bit.


        First of ALL,

        the Macedonians did not emerged only within nor exclusivelly belong only to the present Greek part of historical Macedonia.

        1. To be Macedonian - is NOT a geographycal identity, since Macedonians were living and still live in different geographycal regions such as: Paeonia, Thrace, Epirus, Illyria but always identified themselfs as - Macedonians irrespectivelly of the geographycal region.

        2. To be 'Macedonian' for a Greek person is SECONDARY (local) identity, while being 'Greek' is his PRIMARY (ethnic) identity.

        For the Macedonians from the Republic of Macedonia, being Macedonian is their PRIMARY (ethnic) identity irrespective of the geographycal location, being Macedonian is our ''core identity''.

        If we accept the Greek claims of geopgraphycal sufix it will permanently degrade our PRIMARY identity into the Secondary by their mutual replacement and we shall become local geographycal Macedonians with NO ethnic Macedonian identity.
        If we change our name into "Vardar Macedonians" we will fall into same category with all other geographycal identities and loosing our ethnic name.

        Every Greek has it secured his primary identity which is defined by the NAME of the state and his secondary identity or local by being Athenian, Macedonian, Capadochian etc. etc.

        If we set our state name be based on a lets say for example local determinate - Vardar Macedonians - we are officially becoming Vardarians, equal to Bulgarian Macedonans, Greek Macedonians.

        3. We will lose our right to preserve the primary identity and Macedonia is not anymore our national cradle bearing our name but we are totally different identity one of the many and Macedonia STOPS being a country of the Macedonians, her rank will be geographycal and not national.

        It has to be underlined that the name of the State derives from the name of the People, not the other way.

        If there isn't Macedonia state formally there are NO Macedonians for the rest of the World.

        If Greece was indeed interested only in the 'citizenship' of our people and not the ethnicity of the people they wouldn't insist on changing the name of the language which is very important ethnic characteristic apart from the relation between the citizen and the State.
        The language is a function of consciousness of one man, one nation, one country.
        Therefore by changing our name they want to change our consciousness of who we are and what we are and where are we from.

        If we change the name and we've already changed our consciousness. We will form something new that is unknown for our consciousness.

        Because the name of one man, of one nation, of one state is in the consciousness and consciousness is the name!

        The 'citizenship' would be only a collateral damage.
        Last edited by Bratot; 08-31-2010, 03:50 AM.
        The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

        Comment

        • Pelister
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 2742

          #5
          There is the Greek line that we are a civic State made up of various nationalities, but that there exists no distinctive ethnic Macedonian group.

          By contrast, is calls its 2 million ethnic Greeks, 'Macedonians'.

          I think that the difference is that the Macedonians in the Republic of Macedona are indigenous to the region, while the 'Greeks' in Greek occupied Macedonia are colonists, recent invaders planted their for strategic reasons.

          Native vs Invader
          Indigenous vs Coloniser
          Macedonian vs New Greek

          Comment

          • Bratot
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 2855

            #6
            But it's a matter of time when the 'colonists' will become 'indigenous' to the region right?

            What is a deffinition of a civic state?

            And since when the various nationalities in a state have become a factor of negation to themselfs?

            The Greeks can claim chauvinistc theories about other ethnic groups, but we are here to remind them and sink their nazi hopes deep as possible.

            The Macedonians are Macedonians not only in the Republic but in the wider region and regions and everywhere on this world same as the Greeks are Greeks wherever they live.

            They have invented this strategy of their in order to fog the legal aspects, as long as we will indulge in the discussion 'who came first on this world' or proving some 'unbroken' direct lineage within more than two millenium period in order to acquire our right for self identification they will drive their propaganda successfuly.

            Instead of that we should strike them harshly with the legality of their chauvinistic claims.
            The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

            Comment

            • Rogi
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 2343

              #7
              Part of the problem that is working against Macedonia on the issue discussed in the initial post, is none other than that damned Ohrid Framework Agreement.

              Because of it, Macedonia has moved toward being the State of its' citizens - thus it's citizens being 'Macedonians' - rather than Macedonia being the State of the Macedonian people AND it's citizens, thus the term 'Macedonian' would remain solely an identifier of the ethnic Macedonian people, whereas 'citizen of Macedonia' would identify any citizen of Macedonia, of any ethnic group.

              So while Greece is creating the issue discussed above from one angle, Macedonia too has in effect helped Greece in wiping out the Macedonian people - in name.

              Comment

              • Pelister
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 2742

                #8
                Originally posted by Rogi View Post
                Part of the problem that is working against Macedonia on the issue discussed in the initial post, is none other than that damned Ohrid Framework Agreement.

                Because of it, Macedonia has moved toward being the State of its' citizens - thus it's citizens being 'Macedonians' - rather than Macedonia being the State of the Macedonian people AND it's citizens, thus the term 'Macedonian' would remain solely an identifier of the ethnic Macedonian people, whereas 'citizen of Macedonia' would identify any citizen of Macedonia, of any ethnic group.

                So while Greece is creating the issue discussed above from one angle, Macedonia too has in effect helped Greece in wiping out the Macedonian people - in name.
                Precisely Rogi.

                But not only because of the Framework Agreement. The Macedonians have been undermining their own State as an institution and their own identity, in a myriad of stupid actions and events of the last few decades.

                While Greece is telling the world that the Macedonian Republic is a country of 'citizens' made up of various nationalities - none of them Macedonian; the Greeks are telling the world that they are the real Macedonians - that when one uses the noun 'Macedonians' it means 'I am Greek' and compriese over 2 million ethnic Greeks.

                The tragedy is that the Macedonian government has been exporting these (false) representations to the rest of the world - through the negotiation process.

                It could have challenged the New Greeks on every point - without putting our national identity and our political existence on the negotiating table, and recklessly exposing us.

                Comment

                • Pelister
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 2742

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Bratot View Post
                  But it's a matter of time when the 'colonists' will become 'indigenous' to the region right?

                  What is a deffinition of a civic state?

                  And since when the various nationalities in a state have become a factor of negation to themselfs?

                  The Greeks can claim chauvinistc theories about other ethnic groups, but we are here to remind them and sink their nazi hopes deep as possible.

                  The Macedonians are Macedonians not only in the Republic but in the wider region and regions and everywhere on this world same as the Greeks are Greeks wherever they live.

                  They have invented this strategy of their in order to fog the legal aspects, as long as we will indulge in the discussion 'who came first on this world' or proving some 'unbroken' direct lineage within more than two millenium period in order to acquire our right for self identification they will drive their propaganda successfuly.

                  Instead of that we should strike them harshly with the legality of their chauvinistic claims.
                  The Greeks are spreading lies no doubt.

                  I think its time the Macedonian government started challenging some of the bullshit assumptions that the Greeks have brought to the negotiating table, by first of all pulling out of the negotiations for our own protection and the protection of the Macedonian people, and then start calling the invading Greeks to account for the last century and its lies (from a distance).

                  Your right. Its a case of natives versus colonisers for mine.

                  Comment

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