The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

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  • Carlin
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2011
    • 3332

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    • Carlin
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2011
      • 3332

      Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
      Apeltai = Akritai


      The name that Constantine VII used to call Tsakones.

      I also find it odd that how come Maniots and Tsakonians despite of sharing the same geography, despite of being pagans and despite of being Greeks, differed themselves in language (dialect) and name, if Tsakonian applies to Laconians why weren't Maniots called the same way?
      You are asking the right questions.

      Did you know how the Tsakonians call some of their settlements and towns, in their own dialect?

      Modern Greek: Leonidio
      Tsakonian: Aje Lidi

      MG: Vaskina
      Tsakonian: Vastsina

      MG: Melana
      Tsakonian: Meane

      MG: Pragmateutis
      Tsakonian: Pragmatefta

      MG: Sapounakaiika
      Tsakonian: Sapunatsi

      MG: Tyros
      Tsakonian: Dire

      MG: Agios Andreas
      Tsakonian: Jale

      MG: Prastos
      Tsakonian: Praste

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      • Amphipolis
        Banned
        • Aug 2014
        • 1328

        Originally posted by Carlin View Post
        HELLENE == ARVANITOVLACH
        I really can't understand when you're joking.

        Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
        Vlahos / Vlachos (Βλάχος) is the second most common surname of Greeks.
        No, it's not.

        Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
        I also find it odd that how come Maniots and Tsakonians despite of sharing the same geography, despite of being pagans and despite of being Greeks, differed themselves in language (dialect) and name, if Tsakonian applies to Laconians why weren't Maniots called the same way?
        Check this:
        Hi. A friend of mine has asked me to write a short story about the last Pagans in Greece at the time they still worshiped the Hellenic religion. I think they were baptized at the reign of Basileios the first. Around 860 (?) Can someone direct me to sources? I want it to be as faithful as...

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        • tchaiku
          Member
          • Nov 2016
          • 786

          Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
          No, it's not.
          I was talking with an Arvanite who lives in Spetses, his ancestors came from Shkodra 600 years ago, so ... he was giving me information about Arvanite surnames in Greece I was looking for them and I randomly found out about that surname here:



          Is this ANAX guy trying to argue that Tsakonian applied to Maniots too? Because he doesn't make much sense. Or that Maniots are not ancient Hellenes but Tsakonians are, and that ''older Romans'' quote by Constantine refers to Tsakonians (in the castle of Mani), not Maniots?
          Last edited by tchaiku; 05-29-2017, 12:15 PM.

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          • Carlin
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2011
            • 3332

            Check this:
            http://historum.com/medieval-byzanti...ans-print.html


            That's a very creative and original interpretation of the passage in question.



            "Be it known that the inhabitants of Castle Maina are not from the race of aforesaid Slavs (Melingoi and Ezeritai dwelling on the Taygetus) but from the older Romaioi (= Romans), who up to the present time are termed Hellenes by the local inhabitants on account of their being in olden times idolaters and worshippers of idols like the ancient Greeks, and who were baptized and became Christians in the reign of the glorious Basil. The place in which they live is waterless and inaccessible, but has olives from which they gain some consolation."

            Conclusion/analysis seems to be self-evident:

            - We are told that the inhabitants of Castle Maina are of the Roman race. We are told they are not from the race of Slavs but from the older Romans. They are also not of Hellenic race or descent. If they were, Constantine VII would have written "... are not from the race of aforesaid Slavs ... but from the older Hellenes" - which is clearly not the case. As a result, these older Romaioi were most likely speaking a Latin-based dialect or language at this time.

            - The narrative continues stating that these older Romans are termed Hellenes up to the present time, by the local inhabitants on account of their being in olden times idolaters and worshippers of idols like the ancient Greeks. We clearly don't know who these local inhabitants are/were, and can only speculate as to who they might have been. The most important point here is that these older Romans are termed Hellenes on account of their (formerly) being idolaters like the ancient Greeks - that is to say, this term - applied to them by the locals (whoever they might be) has clear religious value and meaning, not ethnic or racial.

            (To continue, and to make use of ANAX's logic and reasoning, these older Roman inhabitants of the castle of Maina are not locals - because the locals themselves call them Hellenes on account of their former religion (= paganism), etc. We may then conclude that these older Romans are colonists or immigrants.)
            Last edited by Carlin; 05-29-2017, 10:56 PM.

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            • Carlin
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 3332

              Venetians and Ottomans in the Southeast Peloponnese (15th-18th century), by Evangelia Balta

              Some citations -

              Page 172: In 1464, it is attested that the Ottomans, in a skirmish with the Venetians in Tsakonia, slew 200 people and took captive as many again. [Chronicles concerning the Turkish Sultans (according to the Barberini Codex gr. 111)].

              Page 176: There was a demographic burgeoning after the Ottoman conquest. This is at least indicated by the number of taxable units, which increase as the turn from the 16th to the 17th century approaches.

              Page 177: The Ottoman traveller Evliya Celebi likens the hardy Tsakonians to the Kalmuch Tartars. He records words in the Tsakonian dialect, distinguishing the Tsakonians by their linguistic idiom from the rest of the inhabitants of the Peloponnese.

              Page 178: Leonidi is uninhabited until the early 17th century. In register TT 715 (1613/14) it is in fact characterized as mezra'a, that is a cultivated area without a permanently settled population. So, after its destruction by the Ottomans in 1476, Leonidi continued to exist without permanent inhabitants until at least 1613. However, the fact that the settlement is entered in the register as owing 506 aspers in the mid-16th century and correspondingly 5000 aspers in 1613, means that some inhabitants of neighbouring settlements came here seasonally and tilled its lands.

              Page 191: Striking is the large number of Muslim inhabitants of the town of Monemvasia; 497 Muslim families are recorded and (only) 144 Christian ones. It is very possible that these are Christians who converted to Islam.
              Last edited by Carlin; 05-29-2017, 11:24 PM.

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              • Amphipolis
                Banned
                • Aug 2014
                • 1328

                Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
                I was talking with an Arvanite who lives in Spetses, his ancestors came from Shkodra 600 years ago, so ... he was giving me information about Arvanite surnames in Greece I was looking for them and I randomly found out about that surname here:

                This ranked table did not come from the alleged source (that's why there was a warning sign) and was aready vandalised. I removed it myself from wikipedia.

                Comment

                • tchaiku
                  Member
                  • Nov 2016
                  • 786

                  Originally posted by Carlin View Post
                  Check this:
                  http://historum.com/medieval-byzanti...ans-print.html


                  That's a very creative and original interpretation of the passage in question.



                  "Be it known that the inhabitants of Castle Maina are not from the race of aforesaid Slavs (Melingoi and Ezeritai dwelling on the Taygetus) but from the older Romaioi (= Romans), who up to the present time are termed Hellenes by the local inhabitants on account of their being in olden times idolaters and worshippers of idols like the ancient Greeks, and who were baptized and became Christians in the reign of the glorious Basil. The place in which they live is waterless and inaccessible, but has olives from which they gain some consolation."

                  Conclusion/analysis seems to be self-evident:

                  - We are told that the inhabitants of Castle Maina are of the Roman race. We are told they are not from the race of Slavs but from the older Romans. They are also not of Hellenic race or descent. If they were, Constantine VII would have written "... are not from the race of aforesaid Slavs ... but from the older Hellenes" - which is clearly not the case. As a result, these older Romaioi were most likely speaking a Latin-based dialect or language at this time.

                  - The narrative continues stating that these older Romans are termed Hellenes up to the present time, by the local inhabitants on account of their being in olden times idolaters and worshippers of idols like the ancient Greeks. We clearly don't know who these local inhabitants are/were, and can only speculate as to who they might have been. The most important point here is that these older Romans are termed Hellenes on account of their (formerly) being idolaters like the ancient Greeks - that is to say, this term - applied to them by the locals (whoever they might be) has clear religious value and meaning, not ethnic or racial.

                  (To continue, and to make use of ANAX's logic and reasoning, these older Roman inhabitants of the castle of Maina are not locals - because the locals themselves call them Hellenes on account of their former religion (= paganism), etc. We may then conclude that these older Romans are colonists or immigrants.)
                  Romanoi refers to a member of Eastern Roman Empire not a race of ancient Romans (such as Latin colonies). It is also interesting how Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus made a separate reference to the ancient Hellenes.

                  '' ... by the local inhabitants on account of their being in olden times idolaters and worshippers of idols like the ancient Greeks. ''

                  I highly doubt if that passage refers to Tsakonians.
                  Last edited by tchaiku; 05-30-2017, 07:24 AM.

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                  • tchaiku
                    Member
                    • Nov 2016
                    • 786

                    At the beginning of the eighth century we find the native Greeks called Helladikoi by Byzantine writers in order to distinguish ... Even so late as the ninth century the inhabitants of the mountainous regions in Laconia still adhered to paganism

                    A participant in the Greek struggle for independence alongside Lord Byron, the philhellene George Finlay (1799-1875) lent his support to the newly liberated nation while diligently studying its past. The monographs he published in his lifetime covered the history of Greece since the Roman conquest, spanning two millennia. His two-volume History of the Greek Revolution (1861) is reissued separately in this series. Edited by the scholar Henry Fanshawe Tozer (1829-1916) and published in 1877, this seven-volume collection brought together Finlay's histories, incorporating significant revisions. Notably, Finlay gives due consideration to social and economic factors as well as high politics. Volume 1 spans the years 146 BCE to 716 CE. It covers the conquest of Greece by the Romans, and the establishment of the eastern empire. Charting the internal struggles of early Byzantium, Finlay takes the history up to the accession of Leo III.

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                    • Carlin
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3332

                      Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
                      I really can't understand when you're joking
                      Davelis is called a Hellenic robber, and then we are told he is of Arvanitovlach origin. What is incorrect with my interpretation of what's written in wikipedia?

                      What do you make of this quote?

                      Comment

                      • Carlin
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 3332

                        Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
                        Romanoi refers to a member of Eastern Roman Empire not a race of ancient Romans (such as Latin colonies). It is also interesting how Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus made a separate reference to the ancient Hellenes.

                        '' ... by the local inhabitants on account of their being in olden times idolaters and worshippers of idols like the ancient Greeks. ''

                        I highly doubt if that passage refers to Tsakonians.
                        Curta, page 292:

                        'That Emperor Constantine has in mind Latin Romans, and not just the population of Greece in Antiquity, follows from the explanation he gives elsewhere for the fact that in ancient times the whole of Italy was in the possession of the Romans...'


                        From Edinburgh History of the Greeks, c. 500 to 1050, By Florin Curta

                        URL:
                        Last edited by Carlin; 05-30-2017, 10:10 PM.

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                        • Carlin
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 3332

                          Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
                          At the beginning of the eighth century we find the native Greeks called Helladikoi by Byzantine writers in order to distinguish ... Even so late as the ninth century the inhabitants of the mountainous regions in Laconia still adhered to paganism

                          https://books.google.com/books?id=5D...ganism&f=false
                          1) References to the Helladikoi seem to show that there were military units commanded by officers bearing titles typical of late Roman and early "Byzantine" military organization, and that these units had a geographical identity. A seal referring to the regions under the military command of the Helladic forces supports this impression.

                          Byzantium in the Iconoclast Era, C. 680-850: A History, By Leslie Brubaker, John Haldon

                          URL:
                          Iconoclasm, the debate about the legitimacy of religious art that began in Byzantium around 720 and continued for nearly one hundred and twenty years, has long held a firm grip on the historical imagination. This is the first book in English for over fifty years to survey this most elusive and fascinating period in medieval history. It is also the first book in any language to combine the expertise of two authors who are specialists in the written, archaeological and visual evidence from this period, a combination of particular importance to the iconoclasm debate. The authors have worked together to provide a comprehensive overview of the visual, written and other materials that together help clarify the complex issues of iconoclasm in Byzantium. In doing so they challenge many traditional assumptions about iconoclasm and set the period firmly in its broader political, cultural and social-economic context.


                          2) It has sometimes been suggested that Helladikoi was what 'native Greeks' were called in the early Middle Ages by authors concerned with an increasingly theological meaning of the term 'Hellenes'. It is further assumed that despite being called by terms of administrative origin, such as Macedonians or Peloponnesians, the 'native Greeks' could be distinguished from other inhabitants of the empire. Byzantine Greeks were, in the words of Demetrios Constantelos, 'conscious of their continuity with the ancient Greeks (Constantelos 1985: 309). That argument, however, is demonstrably wrong and has now been seriously challenged. A recent examination of Hellenism in Byzantium concluded that no clear notion exists that the Greek nation survived into Byzantine times, and that the ethnic identity of those who lived in Greece during the Middle Ages is best described as Roman (Kaldellis 2007).

                          Edinburgh History of the Greeks, c. 500 to 1050, By Florin Curta

                          URL:
                          Last edited by Carlin; 05-30-2017, 10:28 PM.

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                          • Amphipolis
                            Banned
                            • Aug 2014
                            • 1328

                            Originally posted by Carlin View Post
                            Davelis is called a Hellenic robber, and then we are told he is of Arvanitovlach origin. What is incorrect with my interpretation of what's written in wikipedia?
                            Have you heard of the basic laws of logic? Davelis was a Greek (legendary) robber (probably) of Vlach origin. (By the way, most stories about him are fairytales but your source seems reliable). That doesn't mean that "Greek = ArvanitoVlach"

                            Originally posted by Carlin View Post
                            What do you make of this quote?

                            That it looks like two quotes. It partly suggests that Arvanites and Vlachs are considered Greeks, part of Greece. The rest I don't fully understand, it would depend on the previous paragraphs or the questions and arguments that Colettis tried to answer. (Colettis was Vlach himself).

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                            • Amphipolis
                              Banned
                              • Aug 2014
                              • 1328

                              Originally posted by tchaiku View Post
                              Is this ANAX guy trying to argue that Tsakonian applied to Maniots too? Because he doesn't make much sense. Or that Maniots are not ancient Hellenes but Tsakonians are, and that ''older Romans'' quote by Constantine refers to Tsakonians (in the castle of Mani), not Maniots?
                              His view is as follows:
                              The text is not refered to Maniots as pagans but to Tsakones/Tzakones.
                              The castle of Maini excists to the midle south peninsula of Peloponnese. (more south of the town of Oitilo in the map > west[=left] side of the midle south peninsula).
                              The text refers that the inhabitans of the castle of Maini, called Hellenes from the local Maniots, and the descent of those Hellenes are from the Malea [eastern Peloponnese] peninsula, where there is the Monemvasia area.

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                              • Amphipolis
                                Banned
                                • Aug 2014
                                • 1328

                                Originally posted by Carlin View Post
                                Curta, page 292:

                                'That Emperor Constantine has in mind Latin Romans, and not just the population of Greece in Antiquity, follows from the explanation he gives elsewhere for the fact that in ancient times the whole of Italy was in the possession of the Romans...'


                                From Edinburgh History of the Greeks, c. 500 to 1050, By Florin Curta
                                That is an impressively wrong interpretation. Where did he discover the Latin speakers? I understand our Emperor was not very clear in his wording, but now everyone is adding his own bullshit.

                                I tried to read the previous one or two pages of the Emperor's narration, but it didn't help much. It is about the recent history of collecting taxes from each area. The phrase "as the locals say" is used quite often.

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