Population of Macedonia and Adjacent Areas

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
    If what you stated is the 'accepted framework' for most scholars, then you should be able to easily provide some sources, along with references to the medieval documents and texts.

    Seeing as you are making the claim, the onus is on you to provide the evidence. The opposite is a perversion of the scholarly system of investigation and debate which you claim to be relying on.
    Exactly. I know where he is heading with this anyway, it's the same story one hears of "Illyrians" disappearing into the mountains for half a millenia and then returning as 'Albanians'. Fanciful stuff. I know some western scholars even support such a thesis, but I don't recall seeing a contemporary source ever mentioning such a phenomena, not when they left, nor when they returned.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Carlin
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2011
      • 3332

      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
      Exactly. I know where he is heading with this anyway, it's the same story one hears of "Illyrians" disappearing into the mountains for half a millenia and then returning as 'Albanians'. Fanciful stuff. I know some western scholars even support such a thesis, but I don't recall seeing a contemporary source ever mentioning such a phenomena, not when they left, nor when they returned.
      The 'story' with the Illyrians doesn't rest on firm ground. The 'story' with the Vlachs is different as these Latin-speakers do have a clear connection with the pre-6th/7th c. Roman civilization and culture.

      Most retreated to the mountains, but some stayed back (mostly in walled towns, protected by the Roman army), others were carried away as captives by the Slavs or Avars, others fled to the islands, etc. As I said, it's not a black and white issue where other scenarios didn't occur - but the main point is the majority of those who survived fled to higher ground and they emerge from these regions as Vlach/Latin-speakers a few centuries later.

      The process of migration/returning was not a one time event, but occurred over a period of many decades, if not a couple of centuries. Modern historians find it difficult to explain relatively recent migrations, much less fix a specific time and date for something that happened almost 1500 years ago.

      The best proof is Byzantine writers which make mention of various 'Wallachias' starting in the 11th century (i.e. Anna Komnene, first mention of Vlachs in Thessaly; Frantzis: Little Wallachia in Aetolia, Acarnania, Upper Wallachia in Epirus; Benjamin of Tudela: Great Wallachia/Wallachian Thessaly). By this time there were actually Slavs living in the plains of these regions (Epirus, Thessaly and further south; Macedonia was mostly 'Slavic'-speaking already), so Slavs and Vlachs likely intermingled eventually. The first mention of Vlachs is in roughly 976, when Kedrenos writes about the murder of Samuel’s brother by certain Vlach wayfarers (but that's about it..).

      In 1221 AD the bishop of Nafpaktos John Apokafk notes the existence in Acarnania a rather significant number of "Roman colonists", now called Vlachs. This is a 'quote' (actually one of many) which the proponents of the Illyrian-Albanian hypothesis do not have at all.

      Anyway, do you think terms such as 'Stari Vlah' in southwestern Serbia are a coincidence?

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13670

        Originally posted by Carlin View Post
        The 'story' with the Vlachs is different as these Latin-speakers do have a clear connection with the pre-6th/7th c. Roman civilization and culture.
        I don't doubt that, but their language is closely related to Romanian, and eastern Romance only became distinct from Vulgar Latin some time after the 6th century, and probably even as late as the 9th century. It seems unlikely that the Latin spoken near the Carpathians underwent practically the same sound changes as the Latin supposedly spoken in distant lands like Macedonia, Greece and Albania (the last of which fell within the sphere of western Romance, like Dalmatian) during the same period. It is more likely that Vlachs moved south of the Danube from what became Romania after eastern Romance came to be distinct from Vulgar Latin. That is not to say that Latin-speaking peoples weren't in other Balkan regions also, but the language of the Vlachs is too similar to Romanian to be coincidental.
        ........main point is the majority of those who survived fled to higher ground and they emerge from these regions as Vlach/Latin-speakers a few centuries later.
        Carlin, you can keep repeating it all you want. Until you show us a contemporary source of this happening, it is little more than your own fantasy.
        The best proof is Byzantine writers which make mention of various 'Wallachias' starting in the 11th century (i.e. Anna Komnene, first mention of Vlachs in Thessaly; Frantzis: Little Wallachia in Aetolia, Acarnania, Upper Wallachia in Epirus; Benjamin of Tudela: Great Wallachia/Wallachian Thessaly). By this time there were actually Slavs living in the plains of these regions (Epirus, Thessaly and further south; Macedonia was mostly 'Slavic'-speaking already), so Slavs and Vlachs likely intermingled eventually. The first mention of Vlachs is in roughly 976, when Kedrenos writes about the murder of Samuel’s brother by certain Vlach wayfarers (but that's about it..).
        None of which speak about disappearing into mountains and returning centuries later.
        In 1221 AD the bishop of Nafpaktos John Apokafk notes the existence in Acarnania a rather significant number of "Roman colonists", now called Vlachs.
        Please provide the full quote and a link if possible.
        Anyway, do you think terms such as 'Stari Vlah' in southwestern Serbia are a coincidence?
        That doesn't prove anything. There are many placenames in the Balkans that start with the word 'stari'.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Carlin
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2011
          • 3332

          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
          I don't doubt that, but their language is closely related to Romanian, and eastern Romance only became distinct from Vulgar Latin some time after the 6th century, and probably even as late as the 9th century. It seems unlikely that the Latin spoken near the Carpathians underwent practically the same sound changes as the Latin supposedly spoken in distant lands like Macedonia, Greece and Albania (the last of which fell within the sphere of western Romance, like Dalmatian) during the same period. It is more likely that Vlachs moved south of the Danube from what became Romania after eastern Romance came to be distinct from Vulgar Latin. That is not to say that Latin-speaking peoples weren't in other Balkan regions also, but the language of the Vlachs is too similar to Romanian to be coincidental.

          Carlin, you can keep repeating it all you want. Until you show us a contemporary source of this happening, it is little more than your own fantasy.

          None of which speak about disappearing into mountains and returning centuries later.

          Please provide the full quote and a link if possible.

          That doesn't prove anything. There are many placenames in the Balkans that start with the word 'stari'.

          Chronicle of Monemvasia.

          If this manuscript is somehow proven to be a forgery, it stands as valid evidence.

          According to the manuscript, the Avars and Slavs conquered Thessaly, Epirus, Attica. Many natives retreated to other areas: the nearby islands or elsewhere. The city of Monemvasia, specifically, was built at the time on the coast in an inaccessible region of the Peloponnese by groups that would later be known collectively as Tzakones. As I have already stated, Tzakones were later on identified as Vlachs.

          The following video specifically mentions that both Tzakones and Maniotes were Vlachs (it's in Greek though).
          - "Prior to 1865, Vlachs everywhere in the Peloponnese.." - "Number of non-Vlachs remained lower than the Vlachs.." - "..the Peloponnese consisted mostly, if not entirely, of Vlachs and Albanians.." - "..the guerrillas were generally Vlachs and Albanians, and in the Greek revolution Vlachs

          Comment

          • Voltron
            Banned
            • Jan 2011
            • 1362

            Carlin, what exactly is a real Hellene ? Greeks in antiquity were not immune to intermarriage (Carians for example). Civilised nations usually have contact with other peoples and their contact sometimes can result in a marriage and offspring. This notion of purity is practically nonexistant. Except maybe the eskimos or other isolated amazonian tribes.

            According to the manuscript it was only for 200 odd years. Not to mention it was not an extermination spree like the ovens in Auschwitz, but more of an apartheid type of dominance. There is no archeological evidence of destruction during those years either, something Fallemeyer had a hard time explaining. I also disagree with the impact of Vlachs in Tsakonia, that also doesnt make a lot of sense.

            Originally posted by Onur View Post
            Genetics wise, most of the ancient Balkan population (Thracians, Illyrians, Macedonians, Greeks etc.) has been disappeared between 5-11th century AD because of the dark plague, famine, wars, eastern Roman settlement policies against invading tribes/groups and other causes. So, today`s genetic pool of the Balkans is largely the heritage of post 11th century. Ofc the ancient people surely left their genes too but it`s faint.
            Genetics wise the foreign invaders were absorbed by the locals. A genetic impact did happen but not to the point to erase their anthropoligical characteristics or origins.

            Comment

            • TrueMacedonian
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2009
              • 3810

              An active military programme and a policy of patronage towards both major and minor religious centres abroad were both methods of asserting parity of status with richer rivals in other kingdoms but both laid a heavy burden on Philip V's treasury. His defeat by the Romans in the Second Macedonian War (200-197) saddled him with an indemnity of 1000 talents and shortly afterwards he embarked on a policy designed to expand his revenues.

              He not only increased the revenues of the kingdom by taxes on agricultural produce and by import and export duties; he also restarted the working of old mines that had been abandoned and opened new workings in many places. Moreover, in order to restore the population to its ancient level after the losses sustained in the disaster of war, he not only sought to ensure an increase in the native stock by insisting that everyone must beget children and rear them, but he had also introduced a large number of Thracians into Macedonia. The considerable period of respite from warfare had enabled him to devote all his attention to increasing his kingdom's resources (Livy, xxxix, 24, 2-4).

              The Hellenistic World F. W. Walbank, Harvard, 1981
              Chapter 5 Macedonia and Greece page 88
              Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

              Comment

              • momce
                Banned
                • Oct 2012
                • 426

                the problem in all these debates is we cant really understand the processes around the socalled "ethnographic" bridge and its roles in historical evolution in the Balkan region

                Comment

                • momce
                  Banned
                  • Oct 2012
                  • 426

                  and what these clown dont seem to understand is that greece was never a contiguous geographic or political area...was just settlements(which had all kinds of people in them) and what later developed as greek was a socio-linguistic construct

                  Comment

                  • TrueMacedonian
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 3810

                    Constantine, late in his reign, allowed 300,000 Sarmatians to settle in Pannonia, Thrace, Macedonia, and even in Italy. These new settlers furnished recruits for the Roman army who would join Goths, Scythians, and Germans who not long before had been at war with Rome.

                    Legions of Rome: The Definitive History of Every Imperial Roman Legion, page 202, By Stephen Dando-Collin.
                    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                    Comment

                    • Carlin
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 3332

                      Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
                      Constantine, late in his reign, allowed 300,000 Sarmatians to settle in Pannonia, Thrace, Macedonia, and even in Italy. These new settlers furnished recruits for the Roman army who would join Goths, Scythians, and Germans who not long before had been at war with Rome.

                      Legions of Rome: The Definitive History of Every Imperial Roman Legion, page 202, By Stephen Dando-Collin.
                      Nice find TM.

                      1) Here is a quote from "Pannonia and Upper Moesia: A History of the Middle Danube", by András Mócsy (page 278):

                      "The testimony of a further source allows us to infer that in 332 the Sarmatians were allies of Rome, evidently as a result of the treaty renewed in 322. Since we are further informed that in 332 a huge mass of Sarmatians was settled in the Balkans and in Italy, we must interpret these events in the light of the old alternative: armed aid or receptio, the root cause being increasing pressure exerted on the Sarmatians by the Goths and other Germanic tribes."



                      2) Roots of Balkanization: Eastern Europe C. E. 500-1500, by By Ion Grumeza - Page 58:

                      "Constantine the Great resettled many Sarmatians in Macedonia and Thracia, but not in Mysia/Moesia."

                      'Balkanization' is a modern term describing the fragmentation and re-division of countries and nations in the Balkan Peninsula, as well as a dynamic meaning 'the Balkan way of doing things.' The Roots of Balkanization describes the historical changes that took place in the Balkan Peninsula after the collapse of the Roman Empire and their impact in Eastern lands. It develops conclusions reached in the author's previous book, Dacia: Land of Transylvania, Cornerstone of Ancient Eastern Europe, covering 500 B.C.-A.D. 500. Balkan multi-ethnicity was formed after the fifth century, when barbarian invaders settled and violently mixed with the native ancient nations. By the use of sword and terror, warlords became kings and their confederations of tribes became state nations. New societies emerged under the blessing of the Orthodox Church, only to fight against each other over disputed land that eventually came to be occupied by other invaders. The involvement of western powers and the Ottoman expansion triggered more grievances and violence, culminating with the fall of Constantinople in 1453 and the end of the Byzantine Empire. The medieval culture of the Balkans survived and continues to play a major role in how business and political life is conducted today in Eastern Europe.


                      3) HISTORY OF THE DECLINE AND FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE - Edward Gibbon, Esq.

                      "Some of the fugitive Sarmatians solicited a less ignominious dependence, under the hostile standard of the Goths. A more numerous band retired beyond the Carpathian Mountains, among the Quadi, their German allies, and were easily admitted to share a superfluous waste of uncultivated land. But the far greater part of the distressed nation turned their eyes towards the fruitful provinces of Rome. Imploring the protection and forgiveness of the emperor, they solemnly promised, as subjects in peace, and as soldiers in war, the most inviolable fidelity to the empire which should graciously receive them into its bosom. According to the maxims adopted by Probus and his successors, the offers of this barbarian colony were eagerly accepted; and a competent portion of lands in the provinces of Pannonia, Thrace, Macedonia, and Italy, were immediately assigned for the habitation and subsistence of three hundred thousand Sarmatians."

                      ftp://ibiblio.org/pub/docs/books/gut...link182HCH0002


                      I have no idea where to add this video, so I will post it here. It's a Yale lecture on Nationalism, by John Merriman (this course was recorded in Fall 2008). The Macedonian example is being discussed in the first few minutes, it starts around the 2:20 minute mark. Enjoy.

                      13. Nationalism - YouTube
                      Last edited by Carlin; 12-22-2012, 11:34 AM.

                      Comment

                      • TrueMacedonian
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 3810



                        Philip V Desperate Measures

                        In this period a certain dreadful foreshadowing of misfortune fell upon king Philip and the whole of Macedonia, of a kind well worthy of close attention and record. As though Fortune had resolved to exact from him at once the penalties for all the impieties and crimes which he had committed in the whole course of his life, she now visited him with furies, those deities of retribution, those powers that had listened to the prayers of the victims of his cruelties, who, haunting him day and night, so plagued him to the last day of his life, that all the world was forced to acknowledge the truth of the proverb, that "Justice has an eye" which mere men should never despise. The first idea suggested to him by this evil power was that, as he was about to go to war with Rome, he had better remove from the most important cities, and those along the sea-coast, the leading citizens, with their wives and children, and place them in Emathia, formerly called Paeonia, and fill up the cities with Thracians and other barbarians, as likely to be more securely loyal to him in the coming hour of danger.

                        Exactly what did Paeonia mean to Polybius?
                        Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                        Comment

                        • TrueMacedonian
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 3810

                          Originally posted by Carlin View Post
                          Nice find TM.

                          1) Here is a quote from "Pannonia and Upper Moesia: A History of the Middle Danube", by András Mócsy (page 278):

                          "The testimony of a further source allows us to infer that in 332 the Sarmatians were allies of Rome, evidently as a result of the treaty renewed in 322. Since we are further informed that in 332 a huge mass of Sarmatians was settled in the Balkans and in Italy, we must interpret these events in the light of the old alternative: armed aid or receptio, the root cause being increasing pressure exerted on the Sarmatians by the Goths and other Germanic tribes."



                          2) Roots of Balkanization: Eastern Europe C. E. 500-1500, by By Ion Grumeza - Page 58:

                          "Constantine the Great resettled many Sarmatians in Macedonia and Thracia, but not in Mysia/Moesia."

                          'Balkanization' is a modern term describing the fragmentation and re-division of countries and nations in the Balkan Peninsula, as well as a dynamic meaning 'the Balkan way of doing things.' The Roots of Balkanization describes the historical changes that took place in the Balkan Peninsula after the collapse of the Roman Empire and their impact in Eastern lands. It develops conclusions reached in the author's previous book, Dacia: Land of Transylvania, Cornerstone of Ancient Eastern Europe, covering 500 B.C.-A.D. 500. Balkan multi-ethnicity was formed after the fifth century, when barbarian invaders settled and violently mixed with the native ancient nations. By the use of sword and terror, warlords became kings and their confederations of tribes became state nations. New societies emerged under the blessing of the Orthodox Church, only to fight against each other over disputed land that eventually came to be occupied by other invaders. The involvement of western powers and the Ottoman expansion triggered more grievances and violence, culminating with the fall of Constantinople in 1453 and the end of the Byzantine Empire. The medieval culture of the Balkans survived and continues to play a major role in how business and political life is conducted today in Eastern Europe.


                          3) HISTORY OF THE DECLINE AND FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE - Edward Gibbon, Esq.

                          "Some of the fugitive Sarmatians solicited a less ignominious dependence, under the hostile standard of the Goths. A more numerous band retired beyond the Carpathian Mountains, among the Quadi, their German allies, and were easily admitted to share a superfluous waste of uncultivated land. But the far greater part of the distressed nation turned their eyes towards the fruitful provinces of Rome. Imploring the protection and forgiveness of the emperor, they solemnly promised, as subjects in peace, and as soldiers in war, the most inviolable fidelity to the empire which should graciously receive them into its bosom. According to the maxims adopted by Probus and his successors, the offers of this barbarian colony were eagerly accepted; and a competent portion of lands in the provinces of Pannonia, Thrace, Macedonia, and Italy, were immediately assigned for the habitation and subsistence of three hundred thousand Sarmatians."

                          ftp://ibiblio.org/pub/docs/books/gut...link182HCH0002


                          I have no idea where to add this video, so I will post it here. It's a Yale lecture on Nationalism, by John Merriman (this course was recorded in Fall 2008). The Macedonian example is being discussed in the first few minutes, it starts around the 2:20 minute mark. Enjoy.

                          13. Nationalism - YouTube
                          That's an interesting video Carlin.
                          Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                          Comment

                          • George S.
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2009
                            • 10116

                            So TM what happened to the macedonian population over the hundreds if not thousands of years??Where did they go??Did they leave macedonia?? Did trhey die off??etc What is your opinion based on what you have read.??
                            "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                            GOTSE DELCEV

                            Comment

                            • momce
                              Banned
                              • Oct 2012
                              • 426

                              good question...i think only makes sense to include macedonia as part of regional federation illyria, macedonia, thrace..probably the ancient Macedonians were a mixed tribe as well with different dialects under one tribal council...so maybe the purity issue is not even relevant

                              Comment

                              • George S.
                                Senior Member
                                • Aug 2009
                                • 10116

                                Regarding the past there were a number of different tribes that were classed as macedonian i think they numbered the sixteen rays of the sun,sixteen tribes.But due to many factors our population has dwindled,worldwide i'm told there are about 5 million macedonians,but there are nearly 400 million who use our cyrillic script.At various times we wre attacked by through wars,famine,black death etc.
                                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                                GOTSE DELCEV

                                Comment

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