United Macedonia Diaspora - Page 105

UMDiaspora.org · 01-11-2010, 06:20 PM

Rogi, excellent idea. UMD will entertain this idea for the conference, as we are currently working on developing the agenda. In addition, perhaps this is an idea to be brought before a think tank in Macedonia to engage scholarly work on this.

Prolet · 01-11-2010, 06:44 PM

Buktop, They would all go to the VIP airport which is right next door, ive been before its pretty good.

But i see where you are coming from, thats why as of March 1, TAV will be reconstructing all the airports including the cargo in Stip.

Vangelovski · 01-11-2010, 06:45 PM

Meto, more of your ambiguous ramblings. I have to take that as UMD does in fact support the Framework Agreement and the Interim Accord, seeing as it continues to duck and weave and refuses to answer direct questions.

I didn't ask you for a history lesson, I asked you what UMD stands for? Your inability to provide a direct answer only demonstrates that UMD either does not know what it stands for or actually views these agreements as legitimate and justifiable and does not want to publically state that.

I also have to take it that UMD is still considering "acceptable" name changes seeing as it refuses to explain its President's name change statements.

Warrior · 01-11-2010, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buktop

Once again, this time maybe so you can understand it, the soldiers are there as POLICE,
they cannot shoot people unless people shoot at them,
their job also includes teaching the locals how to become police so that bad guys can't do bad things anymore...

By the way, I wonder how many cow's were slaughtered to make those glamorous Jimmy Choo's you love so much considering that 90% of their products are leather. Just while we are on the topic of Murder...

A relative of mine got back from Afganistan after being injured in a combat and he was not injured whilst he was policing with the American troops!! He got injured whilst they were searching through village houses and one of the elders threw a bomb in the vehicle that was infront of his house. I do believe 5-6 US troops got killed in the explosion. Why kind of policing is that?? If someone comes to my house and terrorises my family i will do exactly the same thing.

He went on to say many stories about life in Afghanistan about being a soldier, but i would like to think he was boasting and those things werent true. If a small fragnment of his stories was true, certainly the US and their lackey troops are not there to create peace, its more about keeping the ammunition factories working in the US!!

Its no fault of the US or Maco soldiers to be there, but the US government has convinced many people that it is right to go there and terrorise innocent people!!! What makes this argument extremely sad is that we are going there under the banner of NATO, but we are not part of NATO!!!!

Btw in that scenario 2 Maco soldiers were injured and transffered to Germany for treatment, but at know stage did the government release a media statement about the incident!!

osiris · 01-11-2010, 10:40 PM

getting involved in pointless wars is not going to solve any of the worlds security problems but when the usa farts our governmnet applauds.

the question is why are we so besotted with the delusional and self serving policies of the american elite. they cannot rule the world through violence and its a shame their gullible and paranoid people dont wake up from their bred in the usa stupour.

is umd serving us interests, yes and any organisation whose main aim is to please its masters is not going to achieve much for their nation.

TrueMacedonian · 01-11-2010, 11:09 PM

Quote:

UMD is a foriegn policy tool of the West to destroy us.

Nothing more.

Oh boy

I mean I like reading conspiracy theories and about secret societies like Skull and Bones and the Bilderberg Group but this attack is just getting out of hand. Pelister with all this energy on attacking UMD you could have used it to attack our real enemies South of Macedonia. And the ghost of x-mas past Vangelovski pops in to add his 2 pence and now UMD are tools of Western powers? What a waste of a topic and I feel sorry for those of you who are sucked in on this sham.

Buktop · 01-11-2010, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

Buktop, will you state your silly theories or shall I paraphrase them for you?

Is it really so hard for you to answer simple questions?

In a republican government who votes for Parliamentarians? Why do they vote for Parliamentarians? What is the Parliament for?

Buktop · 01-11-2010, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

Meto, more of your ambiguous ramblings. I have to take that as UMD does in fact support the Framework Agreement and the Interim Accord, seeing as it continues to duck and weave and refuses to answer direct questions.

I didn't ask you for a history lesson, I asked you what UMD stands for? Your inability to provide a direct answer only demonstrates that UMD either does not know what it stands for or actually views these agreements as legitimate and justifiable and does not want to publically state that.

I also have to take it that UMD is still considering "acceptable" name changes seeing as it refuses to explain its President's name change statements.

You are one to talk about avoiding simple questions. UMD just answered blatantly in their opening sentence that they do not support the Interim Accord or Ohrid Framework.

And once again, you have not shown any proof where UMD supports the Interim Agreement or Ohrid Framework.

Vangelovski · 01-11-2010, 11:24 PM

Buktop,

I’m not sure why your shy, its not like you’re using your real name here, but I’ll briefly put forward your theory of consent, as I understand it. Please correct me if I’m misrepresented it.

Buktop believes that in a republic, once a government is elected, that government has unlimited powers and authority, including the authority to negotiate our state name. By virtue of being elected, Buktop believes that a government has received ‘consent’ from the people for whatever laws or actions that government enacts or undertakes, respectively. Buktop believes that the constitution and human rights can be ignored by the government, because the people have provided ‘consent’ to that government to do as it pleases for its term in power. Further, Buktop believes that if the people do not openly and actively oppose the government, that they are tacitly providing their ‘consent’ to the government.

I, however, disagree. In my view, a republican government consists of those persons to whom certain powers held by the citizens in common are delegated, to act as agents for those citizens, exercising only such powers as are delegated to them, and according to their instructions. That delegation and those instructions constitute the constitution, which may be written or unwritten.

A delegation of powers is not a transfer or assignment, and may be reclaimed at any time that the citizens, in their judgement, find that their agents are not acting in accordance with their wishes.

The authority of an agent or official exists only for as long and to the extent that he exercises his legitimate powers properly, and he automatically ceases to be an agent or official if he exceeds his authority.

The purpose of a good constitution is to limit the power of the government so that it cannot be exercised arbitrarily. Generally, a constitution outlines the structure of Government, establishes necessary institutions and specifies their duties and responsibilities. A constitution delegates limited and specific authority to the government in order for it to carry out its duties and meet its responsibilities as defined by the constitution. Therefore, a government is not free to do as it pleases and can only exercise the powers expressly delegated to it under the constitution.

In a constitutional republic, therefore, the constitution is the supreme civil law, superior to all other public acts, whether by officials or private citizens. Any statute, regulation, executive order, or court ruling which is inconsistent with the constitution and not derived from it is unconstitutional and null and void from inception.

Nowhere in the Macedonian Constitution do I see the Macedonian Government been delegated the authority to negotiate changes to the constitution with a third party, in this case a foreign government. Such authority cannot be assumed and must be expressly provided by the people, which it has not.

A further point to consider is natural rights (fundamental human rights). The natural rights of persons are inalienable, provided to us by our Creator (God) and preceding the social contract and the constitution, and persons may not be deprived of them even with their consent, since they do not have the power to surrender those rights, and therefore do not have the power to delegate the deprivation of those rights to others.

If we to accept Buktop’s theory that a government has unlimited power by simply wining an election (even if it were to theoretically receive 100 per cent of the vote), we would have to accept that the Nazi holocaust was consented to by the people, including the Jewish people themselves, because not only were the Nazi’s elected to government through a democratic vote, but the people did not oppose their policies, hence “consented” to all of the regimes “laws” and actions.

No republican government, even if it were elected by 100 per cent of the people, can act outside of the authority delegated to it in the constitution or disregard natural rights. If it does, it is no longer a republican government, it is a tyranny.

Vangelovski · 01-11-2010, 11:30 PM

Buktop,

UMD said it did not support the Interim Accord and ducked responding to the Framework Agreement. However, as usual, UMD is flip-flopping.

UMD has used the Interim Accord and Framework agreements as supportive arguments in many of their press releases - why would they do that unless they believed these agreements were legitimate and justified?

View Poll Results: Do you consider the UMD as your representative for the Macedonian Diaspora?
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01-11-2010, 06:45 PM	#1043
Vangelovski Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,520	Meto, more of your ambiguous ramblings. I have to take that as UMD does in fact support the Framework Agreement and the Interim Accord, seeing as it continues to duck and weave and refuses to answer direct questions. I didn't ask you for a history lesson, I asked you what UMD stands for? Your inability to provide a direct answer only demonstrates that UMD either does not know what it stands for or actually views these agreements as legitimate and justifiable and does not want to publically state that. I also have to take it that UMD is still considering "acceptable" name changes seeing as it refuses to explain its President's name change statements. __________________ If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams Last edited by Vangelovski; 01-11-2010 at 06:55 PM.

01-11-2010, 11:24 PM	#1049
Vangelovski Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,520	Buktop, I’m not sure why your shy, its not like you’re using your real name here, but I’ll briefly put forward your theory of consent, as I understand it. Please correct me if I’m misrepresented it. Buktop believes that in a republic, once a government is elected, that government has unlimited powers and authority, including the authority to negotiate our state name. By virtue of being elected, Buktop believes that a government has received ‘consent’ from the people for whatever laws or actions that government enacts or undertakes, respectively. Buktop believes that the constitution and human rights can be ignored by the government, because the people have provided ‘consent’ to that government to do as it pleases for its term in power. Further, Buktop believes that if the people do not openly and actively oppose the government, that they are tacitly providing their ‘consent’ to the government. I, however, disagree. In my view, a republican government consists of those persons to whom certain powers held by the citizens in common are delegated, to act as agents for those citizens, exercising only such powers as are delegated to them, and according to their instructions. That delegation and those instructions constitute the constitution, which may be written or unwritten. A delegation of powers is not a transfer or assignment, and may be reclaimed at any time that the citizens, in their judgement, find that their agents are not acting in accordance with their wishes. The authority of an agent or official exists only for as long and to the extent that he exercises his legitimate powers properly, and he automatically ceases to be an agent or official if he exceeds his authority. The purpose of a good constitution is to limit the power of the government so that it cannot be exercised arbitrarily. Generally, a constitution outlines the structure of Government, establishes necessary institutions and specifies their duties and responsibilities. A constitution delegates limited and specific authority to the government in order for it to carry out its duties and meet its responsibilities as defined by the constitution. Therefore, a government is not free to do as it pleases and can only exercise the powers expressly delegated to it under the constitution. In a constitutional republic, therefore, the constitution is the supreme civil law, superior to all other public acts, whether by officials or private citizens. Any statute, regulation, executive order, or court ruling which is inconsistent with the constitution and not derived from it is unconstitutional and null and void from inception. Nowhere in the Macedonian Constitution do I see the Macedonian Government been delegated the authority to negotiate changes to the constitution with a third party, in this case a foreign government. Such authority cannot be assumed and must be expressly provided by the people, which it has not. A further point to consider is natural rights (fundamental human rights). The natural rights of persons are inalienable, provided to us by our Creator (God) and preceding the social contract and the constitution, and persons may not be deprived of them even with their consent, since they do not have the power to surrender those rights, and therefore do not have the power to delegate the deprivation of those rights to others. If we to accept Buktop’s theory that a government has unlimited power by simply wining an election (even if it were to theoretically receive 100 per cent of the vote), we would have to accept that the Nazi holocaust was consented to by the people, including the Jewish people themselves, because not only were the Nazi’s elected to government through a democratic vote, but the people did not oppose their policies, hence “consented” to all of the regimes “laws” and actions. No republican government, even if it were elected by 100 per cent of the people, can act outside of the authority delegated to it in the constitution or disregard natural rights. If it does, it is no longer a republican government, it is a tyranny. __________________ If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

01-11-2010, 11:30 PM	#1050
Vangelovski Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 8,520	Buktop, UMD said it did not support the Interim Accord and ducked responding to the Framework Agreement. However, as usual, UMD is flip-flopping. UMD has used the Interim Accord and Framework agreements as supportive arguments in many of their press releases - why would they do that unless they believed these agreements were legitimate and justified? __________________ If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14 The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

01-11-2010, 06:20 PM	#1041
UMDiaspora.org Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: United States, Australia, Canada Posts: 525	Rogi, excellent idea. UMD will entertain this idea for the conference, as we are currently working on developing the agenda. In addition, perhaps this is an idea to be brought before a think tank in Macedonia to engage scholarly work on this.

01-11-2010, 06:44 PM	#1042
Prolet Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 5,241	Buktop, They would all go to the VIP airport which is right next door, ive been before its pretty good. But i see where you are coming from, thats why as of March 1, TAV will be reconstructing all the airports including the cargo in Stip.

01-11-2010, 10:40 PM	#1045
osiris Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,969	getting involved in pointless wars is not going to solve any of the worlds security problems but when the usa farts our governmnet applauds. the question is why are we so besotted with the delusional and self serving policies of the american elite. they cannot rule the world through violence and its a shame their gullible and paranoid people dont wake up from their bred in the usa stupour. is umd serving us interests, yes and any organisation whose main aim is to please its masters is not going to achieve much for their nation.

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