Kalash / Hunza tribes & the Burushaski Language

[Constellation]

Theories of Greek heritage

Burusho legend maintains that they descend from the village of Baltir, which had been founded by a soldier left behind from the army of Alexander the Great—a legend common to much of northern Pakistan.[12] However, genetic evidence supports only a very small, 2% Greek genetic component among the Pashtun ethnic group of Pakistan and Afghanistan,[13] not the Burusho.[14]

The Hunza and Macedonia
In 2008 the Macedonian Institute for Strategic Researches "16.9" organized a visit by Hunza Prince Ghazanfar Ali Khan and Princess Rani Atiqa as descendants of the Alexandran army.[15] The Hunza delegation was welcomed at the Skopje Airport by the country's prime minister Nikola Gruevski, the head of the Macedonian Orthodox Church Archbishop Stephen and the then-mayor of Skopje Trifun Kostovski. Academics dismiss the idea as pseudoscience and doubts exist that party leaders actually believe the claims either.[/B][16]

LOL!!! the accuracy of the interview content is rather misleading and erroneous, based on the above?

have a nice day!

The only reason those clowns are laughing is because they are too stupid or lazy to investigate the claims of the Slavic origins of the Balkan people.

Here is a study I previously published on this forum from a European Journal of Human Genetics.

While the study is biased (because it starts with "Greeks", even though the study confirms "Macedonians",) here is what is stated:

Pakistan lies within a region that was invaded by Alexander the Great in 327–323 BC,1 although archeological evidence in northern Pakistan suggests that the Greek influence predates this invasion.2 Many ethnically and linguistically distinct populations inhabit this region, three of which (Burusho, Kalash and the Pathan) claim to be descendents of Greek soldiers who invaded the Indian subcontinent.3, 4, 5 A preliminary study using a limited number of Y-chromosomal markers found no evidence for admixture between the Greeks and Burusho or Pathan, and provided ambiguous evidence of genetic admixture between the Greek and Kalash populations.6 A subsequent analysis of autosomal loci gave no indication that the Kalash or other populations were genetically related to the Greeks,7 and in another study the Kalash population were shown as a genetic isolate8 who might therefore have developed unusual genetic characteristics by drift.9

The study found that Macedonians shared a closer genetic affinity with the Pathan population than Greeks.

Clade E3b1 lineages, which were frequent in the Greeks but not in Pakistan, were nevertheless observed in two Pathan individuals, one of whom shared a 16 Y-STR haplotype with the Greeks. The worldwide distribution of a shortened (9 Y-STR) version of this haplotype, determined from database information, was concentrated in Macedonia and Greece, suggesting an origin there.

And again:

Worldwide data for the 16-element haplotype are not available, but a subset of nine of the STRs are included in by the Y-STR Haplotype Reference Database (YHRD)23 and were used to search this. The haplotype DYS19=13; 389I=13; 389II=30; 390=24; 391=10; 392=11; 393=13; 438=10; 439=12 was found in 53 individuals in a worldwide population sample of 7897 haplotypes and was highly specific for the Balkans (Figure 5). The contour map shows a major concentration around Macedonia and Greece, with a low scattering in other European countries, Tunisia, West Africa and the Pathans. This gives a strong indication of a European, possibly Greek, origin of these Pathan Y chromosomes.

The highest frequency is in Macedonia:

This coincides with the period of Alexander's invasion during 327–323 BC. This haplotype was not observed in any other E3b1-derived Pakistani Y chromosome but was highly specific for the Balkans – the highest frequency being in Macedonia.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/full/5201726a.html

So we see, based on the science, Macedonians are closer to the Pathans than the Greeks.

[Poligiros]

The only reason those clowns are

While the study is biased (because it starts with "Greeks", even though the study confirms "Macedonians",) here is what is stated:


The study found that Macedonians shared a closer genetic affinity with the Pathan population than Greeks.

And again:

The highest frequency is in Macedonia:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/full/5201726a.html

So we see, based on the science, Macedonians are closer to the Pathans than the Greeks.

Hi,

You are analyzing some basic sample studies and making conclusions to work in your favor and into a context that suites your political agenda. You have quoted a small sample narrative and there are contradicting studies that show different results of the Hunza tribe.

From the reputable history that I have read, the remnants of the ancient Macedonian tribes were absorbed predominately by the Byzantine empire.

Its erroneous to state that Macedonians from the Republic are more Macedonian that my type of Macedonian (native hellenes from the southern regions of Aegean Macedonia). In actual fact, IMHO ancient Macedonian genes would logically be found in equal proportions in all Balkan directions (e.g. Macedonia, Albania, Bulgaria, Greece) from the core of epicenter of ancient Macedonia.

[Constellation]

Hi,

You are analyzing some basic sample studies and making conclusions to work in your favor and into a context that suites your political agenda. You have quoted a small sample narrative and there are contradicting studies that show different results of the Hunza tribe.

I'm not analyzing anything. The researchers of the study made the claims. They are the claims of the researchers and the scientists. You have a problem with their conclusions, not mine.

Furthermore, I am not "contradicting studies that show different results of the Hunza tribe".

I know of no other studies. And even if I did, I am not the one who made the claims. The researchers did.

Please provide these studies so I may analyze them.

Its erroneous to state that Macedonians from the Republic are more Macedonian that my type of Macedonian (native hellenes from the southern regions of Aegean Macedonia). In actual fact, IMHO ancient Macedonian genes would logically be found in equal proportions in all Balkan directions (e.g. Macedonia, Albania, Bulgaria, Greece) from the core of epicenter of ancient Macedonia.

You make a lot of statements, but provide no evidence to support them.

[Nikolaj]

This is what annoys me a little when we speak about these things with Greeks, specifically.

1) They aren't our conclusions. Please show us how it is our conclusion.
2) Please show how we have taken them out of context. Something they never do or are able to because we simple quote them.
3) Please show us the contradicting studies. But they never do, they just assume they exist.

This is an attitude of denial, not an attitude to produce unbiased scientific conclusions.

[Poligiros]

This is what annoys me a little when we speak about these things with Greeks, specifically.

1) They aren't our conclusions. Please show us how it is our conclusion.
2) Please show how we have taken them out of context. Something they never do or are able to because we simple quote them.
3) Please show us the contradicting studies. But they never do, they just assume they exist.

This is an attitude of denial, not an attitude to produce unbiased scientific conclusions.

OK let us analyse some of these specific quotes:

Quote1: Clade E3b1 lineages, which were frequent in the Greeks but not in Pakistan, were nevertheless observed in two Pathan individuals, one of whom shared a 16 Y-STR haplotype with the Greeks. The worldwide distribution of a shortened (9 Y-STR) version of this haplotype, determined from database information, was concentrated in Macedonia and Greece, suggesting an origin there.

Q1 - From my understanding, there is limited genetic connectivity to the Pathans in comparison to the Balkans, Greece or Macedonia. There is a suggestion of origin of the (9 Y-STR) haloype that is concentrated in both countries (suggesting a limited origin), however it is probably that Greeks/Macedonians may have moved to the Pakistan area through the middle ages for any economic or social reason. I cannot determine a definite link between ancient Macedonian genetics and modern day Hunza from the quote above.

Quote 2:

he haplotype DYS19=13; 389I=13; 389II=30; 390=24; 391=10; 392=11; 393=13; 438=10; 439=12 was found in 53 individuals in a worldwide population sample of 7897 haplotypes and was highly specific for the Balkans (Figure 5). The contour map shows a major concentration around Macedonia and Greece, with a low scattering in other European countries, Tunisia, West Africa and the Pathans. This gives a strong indication of a European, possibly Greek, origin of these Pathan Y chromosomes.

My interpretation, some specific Halotypes from the Balkans can be found in a low scattering in the Pathans. Once again, is it a possibility that that some Greek village experiencing hardship set out and found fertile land in the Pathans in the middle ages and brought a small colony to work the land? What specifically determines that they are from the ancient Macedonian settlements?


Quote: this coincides with the period of Alexander's invasion during 327–323 BC. This haplotype was not observed in any other E3b1-derived Pakistani Y chromosome but was highly specific for the Balkans – the highest frequency being in Macedonia.

My interpretation, there is a coincidence of the sample with a halotype specific to the balkans, the highest frequency being Macedonia. firstly, there were thousands of ethnic Greeks (even from Epirus) and Macedonian that migrated to Republic of Macedonia as result of the communist civil war. Surrounding villages consisted of ethnic Greek children that moved to ex-Yugoslavia. Once again, there is a chance that some of the pathan sample may be related to the ancient Macedonians, however there is also the probability that some Macedonian village immigrated east in the middle-late ages?

These quotes and statements are clutching at straws to establish an improbable link to Hunza people of modern day people of Macedonia. Much like the iGenea studies that were largely debunked by experts. google them.

[Volokin]

My interpretation, there is a coincidence of the sample with a halotype specific to the balkans, the highest frequency being Macedonia. firstly, there were thousands of ethnic Greeks (even from Epirus) and Macedonian that migrated to Republic of Macedonia as a result of the communist civil war. Surrounding villages consisted of ethnic Greek children that moved to ex-Yugoslavia. Once again, there is a chance that some of the pathan sample may be related to the ancient Macedonians, however there is also the probability that some Macedonian village immigrated east in the middle-late ages?

Please provide some non-propagated evidence that "thousands" of ethnic Greeks settled in the roM after the civil war.

I only have heard of self-identifying Greeks settling in Vojvodina.

[Poligiros]

Please provide some non-propagated evidence that "thousands" of ethnic Greeks settled in the roM after the civil war.

I only have heard of self-identifying Greeks settling in Vojvodina.

When I visited Konitsa in Epirus in 2004 we stayed at a hotel where the hoteliers discussed the paedo-mazema in detail during the civil war. The lady said that even some of her child family members whose parents had communist leanings moved to various states of the ex-Yugoslavia in the late 1940s. The majority of these people would solely identify as Macedonian today and have no links to Greece from what I was told? I asked about numbers and she said it was in the thousands just from Epirus, many more from Aegean Macedonia. Obviously some went to Czechoslovakia and other states.

This is not about self identifying Greeks, as I was told that many were treated extremely well financially as a result of relocating. Once again, it's what I was told so let me do some research when I get the chance

[Volokin]

When I visited Konitsa in Epirus in 2004 we stayed at a hotel where the hoteliers discussed the paedo-mazema in detail during the civil war. The lady said that even some of her child family members whose parents had communist leanings moved to various states of the ex-Yugoslavia in the late 1940s. The majority of these people would solely identify as Macedonian today and have no links to Greece from what I was told? I asked about numbers and she said it was in the thousands just from Epirus, many more from Aegean Macedonia. Obviously some went to Czechoslovakia and other states.

This is not about self identifying Greeks, as I was told that many were treated extremely well financially as a result of relocating. Once again, it's what I was told so let me do some research when I get the chance

Well that is different to what you originally said.

there were thousands of ethnic Greeks (even from Epirus) and Macedonian that migrated to Republic of Macedonia as a result of the communist civil war.

[Poligiros]

Well that is different to what you originally said.

In the context of Hunza DNA studies and the markers used as a comparative sample, I was stating that there are thousands of ethnic Hellenes that moved to what is now Republic of Macedonia in during the civil war, and many more that lived there e.g. (Monastiri/Bitola that consisted of a Hellenic Element). Many of these people would not identify as Greek and do not maintain links with Greece. However, their DNA would be similar to a Hellene.

My point is, in ALL Balkan countries you will find an element of neighboring DNA, such as Macedonian in Albania, Greek in Albania. The same goes for Hellenic DNA in Republic of Macedonia.

Therefore when comparing a Pakistani tribe to the Balkans, there is limited accuracy in the haplotype results as they are based on a sample of markers. I am not an expert in the field, but I have doubts about the accuracy of the Hunza being derived from Ancient Macedonia stock.

[Constellation]

You are analyzing some basic sample studies and making conclusions to work in your favor and into a context that suites your political agenda.

You know it is funny you wrote this. You are claiming that I analyzed basic samples, which for the record I did not, and then claimed I made conclusions, which I also did not do, and that these conclusions were made to suite my political agenda, which is a bit ridiculous, since you are the one with the political agenda.

Here is the thing.

I quoted a biased study that started with the “Greekness” of ancient Macedonia, and yet you make it appear that I, and not you and the study have political agendas.

You have quoted a small sample narrative

Quoted a small sample narrative? Have you read the narrative?

Have I in anyway misquoted the study or misread the conclusions?

and there are contradicting studies that show different results of the Hunza tribe

I'm still waiting for these studies. Where are they mate?

My interpretation, there is a coincidence of the sample with a halotype specific to the balkans, the highest frequency being Macedonia. firstly, there were thousands of ethnic Greeks (even from Epirus) and Macedonian that migrated to Republic of Macedonia as result of the communist civil war. Surrounding villages consisted of ethnic Greek children that moved to ex-Yugoslavia.

I see. So you have no actual scientific citations to support your theories, but you insist the correct analysis would have to involve thousands of ethnic Greeks migrating to Macedonia, and that these Greeks are the reason why the Pathan study showed that the highest frequency is in Macedonia.

Here is the problem with this theory.

First, the odds that in the Macedonian study, of all Macedonian nationals, Slav speaking Greeks would have been selected exclusively, is statistically an impossibility.

Second, there was a researcher, named Steven Bird, who investigated this, and he found that the specific genes in the database are almost entirely absent in the Greek population. In other words, the theory that Greeks in northern Greece, who have zero in the way of these genes in this database, migrated in the thousands to Macedonia, and thus this explains why the Macedonians have the highest frequency in the Pathan study, is frankly stupid and absurd.

Anyone who has worked with E3b1 for any length of time will recognize these
immediately as the ordinary modal STR values for the E3b1 subclade (probably E3b1a2, although this still awaits the commercial availability of V13 for proof.)

The authors entered this "Greek"haplotype at YHRD and stated in their
article that 53 individuals in a worldwide population sample of 7897
haplotypes were found that matched it. To quote:

"The contour map [of the distribution of this haplotype] shows a major
concentration around Macedonia and Greece, with a low scattering in other
European countries, Tunisia, West Africa and the Pathans. This gives a
strong indication of a European, possibly Greek, origin of these Pathan Y
chromosomes." Thus in this statement, they again conflate Macedonian and
Greek ancestry. (See above-linked abstract to the article, "HLA genes in
Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.").

I decided to follow suit and enter the same data at YHRD. I entered the
above haplotype and came up with a list of the populations with matches to
this profile. What struck me immediately was the almost complete ABSENCE of
this haplotype in Greece itself!!!! The only exception was found in Thrace,
Greece, where 4 out of 41 samples showed this profile. Every other profile
was found outside of Greece itself, including 14/149 in Macedonia, 4/43 in
Krusevo, Macedonia (among the Aromun population there,) 8/453 in Stuttgart,
Germany, 5/35 in Sarajevo, 3/52 in Skopje, Macedonia, 2/30 in Tirana,
Albania, etc.

The following regions in Greece had NO presence for this profile in YHRD
(sample size in parenthesis):

Athens (101)
Central Greece (14)
Crete, Greece (8)
Epirus, Greece (14)
Macedonia, Greece (28) !!!!!!
Peloponnes, Greece (18)
Thessaly, Greece (15)

198 samples above, plus 37 out of 41 samples in Thrace, for a total of 235
samples found in Greece had NO appearance of this haplotype whatsoever. The
E3b1 modal appeared in just 4 out of 235 samples within the borders of
Greece itself and those in a region that was originally part of Thracia.
How can anyone say credibly that this group is representative of a displaced
Greek population? At the very least it is Macedonian and considering the
known composition of Alexander's army, may have been Thracian instead.

The problem, obviously, is with the misidentification of Alexander as a
Greek rather than a Macedonian by these researchers. If they had stated
that the Pathan population of Pakistan had been descended from Macedonians
who accompanied Alexander, I believe that they would have hit the mark.

One other paragraph is worth noting:

"This haplotype was not observed in any other E3b1-derived Pakistani Y
chromosome but was highly specific for the Balkans -- the highest frequency
being in Macedonia."

I was speechless. The right conclusion but the wrong description.

This sinks your theory in the Aegean Poligiros.

These quotes and statements are clutching at straws to establish an improbable link to Hunza people of modern day people of Macedonia. Much like the iGenea studies that were largely debunked by experts. google them.

Poligiros, the problem we have is that you make broad (and false) statements.

First, it is “improbable” to you, because you “start” with the “Greekness” of ancient Macedonia, and the “Slavness” of modern Macedonians, so in your mind, no matter what scientific studies show, there can be no Macedonian connection to the Pathans.

Second, the iGenea study is not inaccurate, it is how the data was identified. If iGenea would have stuck with haplogroups and not ethnic compositions, the studies it conducted would never have been challenged or maligned. I do not think I need to remind you that all genetic studies support the same position: Macedonians are genetically very close with other Balkan people, including Greeks, Bulgarians, and Albanians.

[Nikolaj]

These quotes and statements are clutching at straws to establish an improbable link to Hunza people of modern day people of Macedonia. Much like the iGenea studies that were largely debunked by experts. google them.

I believe Constellation has clarified your post well enough.

[Poligiros]

You know it is funny you wrote this.

I quoted a biased study that started with the “Greekness” of ancient Macedonia, and yet you make it appear that I, and not you and the study have political agendas.

I'm still waiting for these studies. Where are they mate?

Go to google and search for Hunza and DNA. We have Albanians claiming direct lineage too - LOL: " the relationship between Kalash-Hunza and Albanians is suggested by various scholars: Leitner, E.Skura, A.Kola, S.Lolja, L.Gjokaj, S.Mehmeti, etc. The modern scholarship accepted widely that are still alive the remains of Alexander’s army. We know from Susa’s marriages that more than 10,000 Illyro-Macedonian solders were married with Persian women in order to reinforce Illyro-Macedonian domination of Asia"

Go through and research some of the results.

Poligiros, the problem we have is that you make broad (and false) statements.

First, it is “improbable” to you, because you “start” with the “Greekness” of ancient Macedonia, and the “Slavness” of modern Macedonians, so in your mind, no matter what scientific studies show, there can be no Macedonian connection to the Pathans.

Actually, you have totally missed my point. I am trying to tell you that no one Balkan nation is ethically pure as people moved around in all neighboring nations. As for the Hunza, there may be more concentration of Hunza haplotype in the Republic of Macedonia compared to other nations in one sample study you are referencing for varying reasons. Have you thought about the fact that Asiatics (e.g. Iranian) tribes moved west to Europe as far as the Adriatic?

I do not think I need to remind you that all genetic studies support the same position: Macedonians are genetically very close with other Balkan people, including Greeks, Bulgarians, and Albanians.[/QUOTE]

That I agree with. I was referring to one of many iGenea propaganda studies I have seen on various sites stating modern day Greeks were closely related to Ethiopians and other distorted findings? I cant be bothered googling the scientific response debunking propaganda piece, as I have done so many times in the past.

Overall, I think the issue here is the fact that you deny Macedonia's Hellenic element that is heavily pertinent to Macedonia's history and makeup. Macedonia has been a multicultural region after the Hellenistic age, including Roman and other migrations. The status quo is not going to change, thus I believe its beneficial to be acquainted with neighboring Balkan cultures, especially in the greater Macedonian region.

regards

[TheNikoWhiteIch]

The Supposed Hunza/Kalash-Macedonian Connection Theory

All evidence with sources is welcome. Personally I believe the theory is far-fetched but let's see what we can uncover about it.

Here's the Macedonian Wikipedia article on the Hunza:

http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A5%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%B7%D0%B8

Here's the English Wikipedia article on the Hunza:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burusho_people#Hunza

Here's a YouTube video on the Kalash people:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJj5FHosjYw&feature=related

Here's an article on the Hunza:

https://archive.today/20130103054812/www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-15474302.html

Here's another YouTube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0LSoUMXHQk

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Interesting side-note: in this video the old man that is being interviewed says that their word for hand is "chaka," which is nearly like the Macedonian "raka" (dialectic Macedonian: "ranka," "ruka," "ruko.") This, of course, cannot be enough to draw a strong connection between the Hunza and Macedonian. Perhaps the reason why the word is similar is because both are I.E. languages and it's a coincidence.
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[Philosopher]

You mean linguistically?

[DraganOfStip]

Interesting side-note: in this video the old man that is being interviewed says that their word for hand is "chaka," which is nearly like the Macedonian "raka" ...
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We also have the word "shaka (шака)" which is the palm of the hand.