Macedonia is the Mother of all Macedonians, 1856!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Amphipolis
    Banned
    • Aug 2014
    • 1328

    #31
    Originally posted by Chakalarov View Post

    There are no citations for the roots mak and edon. I have tried searching PIE lexicons but I have not found much. Does anyone have anything more to add to the discussion?
    You can find the references here:


    Wikipedia is also more accurate to attribute the -chthon idea to Pisani, not Babiniotis. In short it's only the mak, makos etymology that is strong. The rest is far from certain.

    By the way this phrase

    “However, modern research by Robert S.P. Beekes claims that the morphological analysis make- (root) + -dnos (suffix) is impossible in an Indo-European word”

    seems extremely ridiculous when remembering that Indo-European is not an existing discovered language of the past, but a modern theoretical construction (of a hypothetical root language).

    So first, you invent a language, then you invent a hundred of rules about it and then you decide, after a lot of thinking, “Makednos doesn’t seem to follow any of my rules”. Great!

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      #32
      Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
      Wikipedia is also more accurate to attribute the -chthon idea to Pisani, not Babiniotis. In short it's only the mak, makos etymology that is strong. The rest is far from certain.
      In the -chthon theory, Macedonian is purported to have had an equivalent in the constructed kedōn. That assumes that the -k in -makos was dropped. Not sure how common that is.
      By the way this phrase

      “However, modern research by Robert S.P. Beekes claims that the morphological analysis make- (root) + -dnos (suffix) is impossible in an Indo-European word”

      seems extremely ridiculous when remembering that Indo-European is not an existing discovered language of the past, but a modern theoretical construction (of a hypothetical root language).

      So first, you invent a language, then you invent a hundred of rules about it and then you decide, after a lot of thinking, “Makednos doesn’t seem to follow any of my rules”. Great!
      It is a reconstructed language based on years of studies, hence where the rules come from. I am not saying I agree with all of them, but your wholesale dismissal is unfounded. Given that he is a professor in comparative linguistics, Beekes' opinion shouldn't be so easily brushed aside without further explanation. He has also produced some interesting works on pre-Greek.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • TheNikoWhiteIch
        Member
        • Oct 2014
        • 111

        #33
        Alright,
        So a common theory (and practically the only one that Wikipedia wants people to know about) is that "Makedonija" comes from Greek words that translate it as "big land/large land." However, can we come to such a meaning without using obscure Greek words that according to Robert S.P. Beekes don't seem possible? Of course! As noted in previous replies by other users, Tocharian -mākā, Phrygian -meka, and Hittite -makes all translate as "large, big, vast." Thus, "Make-" does not necessarily have to come from Greek words. If we consider a Thraco-Phrygian or Thraco-Hittite origin of the name, we can still come to the definition "big land/large land." The Thracian word "don" means "country/countryside," and the Phrygian "Meka-" is similar to "Make-," so we can construct the name "Mekadon" with those languages. If we consider the Hittite "Makes-," we can construct the name "Makesdon." I also came across a glossary of Illyrian words. Their word for "great/big" was "Mag-." Perhaps in the languages of the populations that inhabited Macedonia, this could have changed to "Mak-,"; in any case, using Thraco-Illyrian vocabulary, we arrive at the name "Mag(e)don."

        Now, what interests me more is this: I believe I either read it on this thread or elsewhere that the Sanskrit word for mother is "maheta." If this is correct, then consider the following: Thucydides, in his account of the Peloponnesian War, said Macedonia was called "Maketa" or "Maketia." Now, we know that the ancient language didn't have definite articles, so it's not very obvious that this translates as "The Mother." But perhaps it is related to the Sanskrit word for "mother." In which case, "Maketa" or "Maketia" would still translate as "Mother's Land/Land of (the) Mother."

        However, perhaps there is a Greek connection we've all overlooked. The ancient Macedonian word for "butcher" was "Mάγειρος" (Mįgeiros), and is related to the constructed P.I.E. root "magh-" meaning "to fight/to quarrel." In modern Greek "Mάχαιρα" (Makhaira) means "knife" and is related to "Mįgeiros." In which case, using Thraco-Greek vocabulary, one can construct the meaning "Fighting land/Warring land" as in "Mage-don" or "Makha-don." However, this is just speculation, and may not actually hold much water.

        Lastly, the only thing I found about "Kaukones" being the older name of the Macedonians is this:
        The Kaukones were an indigenous tribe of Anatolia whose migrations brought them to the western Greek mainland in Arkadia, Triphylian Pylos, and north into Elis. Their etymology suggests strong affinities with the Caucasos Mountains of Eurasia originally. The Caucones appear in the Iliad Book X, when the Trojan herald Dolon reveals the array of Trojan allies, ranged among their neighbors like a lesson in geography: "Towards the sea lie the Karians, and Paionians of the bent bow, and the Leleges and Caucones, and noble Pelasgians." Efforts were made, we are told by Pausanias (4.1.5). to 'historicize' Kaukon as the early ancestor of the Athenian genos Lykomidai around 480 BC by inventing a grandson of an earth-born Phlyus named Kaukon.
        The only word that I can come to think of that sounds similar to "Kaukones" is "Kune/Kuon/Kuno" which in Phrygian, Greek, and Macedonian means "dog."
        Last edited by TheNikoWhiteIch; 02-16-2015, 10:54 PM.

        Comment

        • Toska
          Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 137

          #34
          Originally posted by TheNikoWhiteIch View Post
          Thucydides, in his account of the Peloponnesian War, said Macedonia was called "Maketa" or "Maketia." Now, we know that the ancient language didn't have definite articles, so it's not very obvious that this translates as "The Mother." But perhaps it is related to the Sanskrit word for "mother." In which case, "Maketa" or "Maketia" would still translate as "Mother's Land/Land of (the) Mother."
          Majkata , Majkati .... sounds exactly the same with a slight dialect difference

          Comment

          • TheNikoWhiteIch
            Member
            • Oct 2014
            • 111

            #35
            Perhaps. I think it would be interesting to see exactly where Maketa has been translated as "Mother." I do see the very obvious resemblance, but I don't want to be quick to jump to conclusions. From some sources that I found online, I know that "Mater (Ματερ)" was the ancient Macedonian word for "mother." But I haven't seen "Maketa" translated as that by any credible scholars.

            Comment

            • Toska
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 137

              #36
              Pickati mater ?

              Comment

              • TheNikoWhiteIch
                Member
                • Oct 2014
                • 111

                #37
                Well, yes. Though I think Serbians still use "Mater" for "mother." In any case, has anyone started a thread on the supposed Hunza-Macedonian relation? It'd be interesting to discover more about them.

                Comment

                • TheNikoWhiteIch
                  Member
                  • Oct 2014
                  • 111

                  #38
                  In the -chthon theory, Macedonian is purported to have had an equivalent in the constructed kedōn. That assumes that the -k in -makos was dropped. Not sure how common that is.
                  I have searched all of the glossaries of related languages for anything resembling this. If you search "earth" on
                  HTML Code:
                  www.palaeolexicon.com
                  and look at the Phrygian entries, it lists 2 that resemble something like this:
                  ΓΔΑΝ ΜΑ = Earth Mother
                  --etymology: P.I.E. ĝhšem-, ĝhšom-, and likely P.I.E. mįH₂ter-
                  ΚΤΟΝ = Earth, Soil
                  --etymology: P.I.E. ĝhšem-, ĝhšom-

                  If this holds true, then in all likeliness the name "Macedonia" is purely Phrygian. We see a connection to the Greek "khthon" through the same P.I.E. root. In "ΓΔΑΝ ΜΑ" we also see a reference to a proposed ancient Macedonian goddess of the earth (that being the "ΜΑ").

                  Comment

                  • George S.
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2009
                    • 10116

                    #39
                    just remember where the origins originated from.Even the greeks are not from the Balkans originally.Macedonia has survived eeons of years in existence to prove it does exist.The problem is we let others write our history.As they like it to be not how we like it to be.
                    "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                    GOTSE DELCEV

                    Comment

                    • TheNikoWhiteIch
                      Member
                      • Oct 2014
                      • 111

                      #40
                      Irrelevant comment is irrelevant. If you consider a Phrygian origin, it still means "Mother's land."

                      Comment

                      • TheNikoWhiteIch
                        Member
                        • Oct 2014
                        • 111

                        #41
                        Regarding the other name of Macedonian in the ancient world (Maketa), I found these to be interesting:

                        Macedonians formed during the Iron Age, from Brygian substratum and from Indo-European substratum, settled here at the end of the II millennium; the Macedonians, according to legends got their name from the mythological ancestor Makedon. Maketa, the oldest name of Macedonia (Makedonis), after the mythological original ancestor Maketa
                        Source: http://www.winne.com/macedonia/bf01.html

                        The name Emathia was overridden by the name Macedonia whose older name used to be Maketa and Makedon as Hesiod, in his Teogonia, he mentioned it where he determined Makedon as the son of Zeus and Thia. The etymology of the name Macedonia, most probably derives from the substratum of extinct Balkan languages of Indo-European origin.
                        Source: http://whereismacedonia.org/about-ma...bout-macedonia

                        For the Macedonians belong to the Lyncestae...The original Macedonians, a nation referred by Mueller to the Illyrian race, are supposed to have been confined, in their earliest settlements, to Maketa, a district of Orestis. That which is generally called Macedonia proper, is divided into upper and lower Macedonia. The former comprises the mountainous districts of Elimeia, Lyncestis, and Oresti (which took its name from the mountains (ori/ora) wherein they dwelt). Lower Macedonia, which appears to have been a later acquisition of the Maketai, and to have originally been called Emathia, comprised the districts of Edessa and Beroea. This part, inhabited originally by the Pelasgians, fell into the power of the Teminidae.
                        Source: The English Works of Thomas Hobbes of Malmesbury, Volume 8

                        Given that Maketa, a district of Orestis, is said to have been the original Macedonia, and originally settled by Illyrians, we can assume that the specific Illyrians that lived there were likely the Paeonians (a fact which is supported by Homer).

                        As to it's definition, that still remains unclear. But if we consider that the Paeonians are said to be settlers from Phrygia (another fact supported by ancient scholars), then we can at least assume it means "Mother." But until I see a definition of it in a lexicon, it cannot really confirm it.

                        Comment

                        • TheNikoWhiteIch
                          Member
                          • Oct 2014
                          • 111

                          #42
                          The Mystery of the Name "Macedon"
                          "In the word "Macedonia" the "-ia" is a suffix as in many words in the Indo-European languages. Hence, the word that we have to interpret is "Macedon".

                          The word "Macedon", from the Indo-European point of view, is a compound word which consist of two roots: "mac" (mak) and "don". The vowel character "e" between them is a linking character. Thus, the formal structure of this compound word is "Mac-e-don".

                          In the Indo-European languages we have similar words as the last root-word in "Macedon": "dom" (in many Slavic languages); "domus" (in Latin language); "dam" (in Sanskrit); "dun" (in Armenian), and etc. The meaning of "dom", "dam", and "dun" in these languages is house, homeland, or fatherland. No doubt, the word "don" in "Macedon" has the same meaning and derives from the Indo-European "dŌm" (3) – house, homeland or fatherland as in this mentioned above languages and has no relation to the Russian river "Don" (2). We see that in Slavic, Latin, and Sanskrit languages the root always ends with the consonant "m" (dom, dom-us, dam) with the exception of Armenian. In Armenian language the root ends in "n" (dun). This exception in Armenian is believed to be due to the influence of the suffixes in the Hurrian language (6). Since "don" in "Mace-don" ends in "n", the root-word is likely a Hurrian word for house or homeland. This raises the question of whether "mace" is also a Hurrian word.

                          In some Slavic Indo-European languages we have the word "mac" (a poppy), but there isn´t information that Bruges (Phrygians) were familiar with bleating this plant from which opium is made. However, the meaning of the first root-word in "Macedon," "mac" (mak), in the Indo-European mother language is "sheep". Similar words as "makaka" (bleating animals – sheep, goat) we have in Sanskrit, "maki" (female sheep) in Armenian, and other Indo-European languages (3).

                          Based on above, the meaning of the compound word "Macedon" is "Sheep Land" or "The Land of Sheep". However, there is more likely interpretation of the word "Macedon" after the discovery of one word in the old Armenian language – "Macenotsats"."

                          Source: http://archive.is/50DJ

                          An interesting analysis by an Edouard Selian. This supports the idea that the "-don" suffix in "Make-don" means "homeland." However, the rest of the analysis is certainly peculiar.

                          Comment

                          • Macedonian
                            Junior Member
                            • Oct 2013
                            • 36

                            #43
                            I once read that the "ia' suffix is derived from "zemja/zemia", hence Make (Mother) - Don (Home) - Ja/Ia (Land) = Motherland.

                            Furthermore, just pop 'World of Mother" into Google translate and listen to what the 'Hindi' translation vocalizes as. I asked a Hindi speaking colleague to confirm and he verified to the positive.

                            Interesting to say the least.

                            Comment

                            • TheNikoWhiteIch
                              Member
                              • Oct 2014
                              • 111

                              #44
                              I've heard of that one and it is possible, I'm just sharing something interesting I found on the possible etymology. I find it peculiar that "mak-" is connected to sheep here, since I haven't found much about if sheep held any special meaning in the ancient Macedonian society like snakes and horses did.

                              Comment

                              • George S.
                                Senior Member
                                • Aug 2009
                                • 10116

                                #45
                                The thing that is grossly overlooked
                                Is that macedonians were
                                Around before prehistory
                                Before the neighbours even came in.How ridiculous
                                For greeks to claim that macedonians and greeks were the same.They were not and they spoke a different language.They are two different races.Any one can write their own history with their own slant.
                                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                                GOTSE DELCEV

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X