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Old 01-05-2017, 06:13 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
I think it was pretty clear that Stojacanec' post is in response to the Serbian FM article and not any of your ramblings, how bout you settle down a little cup cake, before you give credence to your own assertions

Oh.. I see.. I apologize for the misunderstanding..but there is no need to call me a moron or cupcake !
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Old 01-05-2017, 06:28 AM   #22
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Oh.. I see.. I apologize for the misunderstanding..but there is no need to call me a moron or cupcake !
Clearly you don't see as he was calling the Serbian FM a moron, not you. Perhaps you should have taken that advice I offered earlier, cause now you've given credence to your own assertion
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Old 01-05-2017, 07:29 PM   #23
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Well weather Macedonians take up extreme action it totally up to them..
But firstly I believe they need to make a louder noise and strengthen their political parties and organisations in order to draw attention to issues affecting them.

If you can't get a significant number of people to firstly protest (loudly) in Athens, Sofia or Tirana .. where are you going to find people who will take extreme action!
Albo, I was talking about Macedonians in Macedonia. Don't you get it? What makes you think Macedonians in Macedonia are doing any better than ethnic Albanians in Macedonia?
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Old 01-05-2017, 07:38 PM   #24
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Well I assume your talking about the 'Badintet Principal' ?
You would need to ask yourself why do you think that the experts ( both local and western) who drafted the Ohrid Agreement added this as a provision to the final agreement?
I think it was added as a provision to force federalisation based upon ethnicity at some time in the future. That the complication and unrest it creates by definition absolutely ensures that Macedonia cannot truly function as a sovereign nation.

You shouldn't rely on experts too much Albo.


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Don't forget that Macedonians use this principle in municipalities where Albanians are a majority..
They would not have even needed it if the Badinter approach didn't apply.
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Old 01-08-2017, 06:50 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
Albo, I was talking about Macedonians in Macedonia. Don't you get it? What makes you think Macedonians in Macedonia are doing any better than ethnic Albanians in Macedonia?
Correct me if I am wrong Albo, but weren't you a member before and didn't you avoid these kinds of simple questions in the past?
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Old 01-09-2017, 02:51 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Albo View Post
Oh.. I see.. I apologize for the misunderstanding..but there is no need to call me a moron or cupcake !
Tomche Makedonche was corrrect, I was talking about the Serbian FM about his comments.

You don't need to take this down a different path.
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Old 01-09-2017, 05:26 AM   #27
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Well I assume your talking about the 'Badintet Principal' ?
You would need to ask yourself why do you think that the experts ( both local and western) who drafted the Ohrid Agreement added this as a provision to the final agreement?

I think it was added as a provision to force federalisation based upon ethnicity at some time in the future. That the complication and unrest it creates by definition absolutely ensures that Macedonia cannot truly function as a sovereign nation.

You shouldn't rely on experts too much Albo.
I seriously don't see how this principle was added to on anyway assist in a possible future federalization of Macedonia,

Complication and unrest will only occurs if non consensual decisions are to be made in which are deemed offensive or unjust to the effected community.

If decisions are made at a central or local level which wouldn't create any negative impact on whichever ethnic group, then there will be no need to use the principle at all..

I believe that multi ethnic societies only function effectively when there is good will, understanding, consensus and respect for all. This may sound utopian in the Balkans, but its the only way forward if we want to prosper and forget the past.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
Albo, I was talking about Macedonians in Macedonia. Don't you get it? What makes you think Macedonians in Macedonia are doing any better than ethnic Albanians in Macedonia?

Correct me if I am wrong Albo, but weren't you a member before and didn't you avoid these kinds of simple questions in the past?
Firstly .. No I was never a previous member on here avoiding anything.

As for your question about Macedonians doing any better than Albanians.

This is a big issue and where I believe there needs to be more information and conversation to find some form of understang to Albanian grievances.

I'm not saying that all Macedonians are better off than Albanians,

What are facts and what is real is that since Yugoslavia and since the independents of Macedonia, Albanian inhabited regions have been severely discriminated against by central authorities when it came to government funding for things like:

Education : eg Most Albanian schools run on 2-3 shifts because they haven't been extended or upgraded in decades, and new ones simply don't get funded when required.


Infrastructure: eg, Did you know that most roads water systems in Albanian villagers are paid for by locals and the diaspora?

There is clear decrimination in urban city neighborhoods also.. Just go for a walk in cities like Skopje and Kumanovo and you will see that there has been a simple blatant refusal to urbaise Albanian neighborhoods to the same level with Macedonian Majority neighborhoods.

Look at Skopje, and the clear disparity from each side of the river, the Albanian districts in Cair, Gazi Baba and Butel looks like ghettos, they still don't have proper running water and sewage systems in place.

This isn't the case in Centar, Illinden , Aerodrom Gjorce Petrov ect. now is it?

Since the earthquake in Skopje there has been no plan or funding to bring the Albanian districts to some form of parity to the Macedonian ones.

Hospitals: We all know that most hospitals are terrible in Macedonia but the ability to access medical assistance in Albanian regions is a lot more difficult and scarce especially in remote areas even though they have large populations.

Jobs: eg, If you look at the distribution of foreign investment into Macedonia and where those investments go you will see that there has been an almost complete deliberate avoidance to place companies that employ large numbers of people in Albanian majority regions.

Most investment goes to central and eastern Macedonia.. this is a fact, and has been going on for decades.

Macedonia has one of the highest employment rates in the world..around (30%) in Albanian regions its almost impossible to find employed people outside the government sector or small family run businesses the unemployment rate is around 70%

Whats the purpose of all this disparity of public funds?
Albanians will say that purpose is to make, life as difficult and uncomfortable as possible to that they MIGRATE and leave... after all one can't live a normal life without basic services and income.

Its clear that most Macedonians want a Macedonia with as little Albanians in it as possible, I understand that for many reasons, but its a source of constant friction and negative debate that leads where??

Most Albanian families live off remittances sent from family abroad, this is their life line to survival, this isn't the case for most Macedonians..
There needs to be some form or legal protection to ensure parity, not more not less.. if you want loyal citizens, openly discriminating with basic funding isn't going to help.

I'm not saying Albanians aren't to blame at all as we have elected our leaders who have been.goos for nothing when it comes to improving the lives of everyday Albanians.. but as Macedonians like to keep reminding us that they are the majority.. then take responsibility and show how as a majority you hold the keys to effectively effect the minority in a sincere positive way, and the minority will show appreciation in varied forms.
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Old 01-09-2017, 07:29 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Albo View Post
I believe that multi ethnic societies only function effectively when there is good will, understanding, consensus and respect for all.This may sound utopian in the Balkans, but its the only way forward if we want to prosper and forget the past.
Tell that to your fellow Albanians in the former mixed-populated villages in the 2001 conflict regions.
They provided logistics and helped the terrorists expel and burn the houses of the Macedonians, literally their own next-door neighbors.
The "good will, understanding, consensus and respect for all" isn't a one-way street, if you want it to work it must come from both sides.
You can't burn your neighbor's house and expect him to respect you after and pretend it never happened.

Quote:
Education : eg Most Albanian schools run on 2-3 shifts because they haven't been extended or upgraded in decades, and new ones simply don't get funded when required.
ALL schools in Macedonia work in 2 shifts.Not just in Albanian-populated areas.
You wanted equality,didn't you?

Quote:
Infrastructure: eg, Did you know that most roads water systems in Albanian villagers are paid for by locals and the diaspora?
Have you ever traveled by car to the eastern part of the Republic?
Any Macedonian can tell you that road infrastructure in the western part is several times better than the one in the east.
A simple rockslide after Kocani on the Veles - Delcevo highway can cut off Makedonska Kamenica, Delcevo and the surrounding villages because there are no alternative roads to there.
Or if there are, they're narrow, steep, dirt roads that can be a nightmare in the slightest rain.

Quote:
Look at Skopje, and the clear disparity from each side of the river, the Albanian districts in Cair, Gazi Baba and Butel looks like ghettos, they still don't have proper running water and sewage systems in place.

This isn't the case in Centar, Illinden , Aerodrom Gjorce Petrov ect. now is it?

Since the earthquake in Skopje there has been no plan or funding to bring the Albanian districts to some form of parity to the Macedonian ones.
The level of urbanization in each city is the same whether you live in America, Europe, Australia - the center of the city is most urbanized and as you go outward it is less and less urban.It also depends on locations of landmarks and public buildings.
Just look at where each district you named is geographically located in Skopje and that will answer your question.
It has nothing to do with the ethnic diversity of the districts.

Quote:
Hospitals: We all know that most hospitals are terrible in Macedonia but the ability to access medical assistance in Albanian regions is a lot more difficult and scarce especially in remote areas even though they have large populations.
Again, geography plays a significant role since most of western Macedonia is a mountainous terrain, so accessing medical help (along many other things) is difficult.
And yes, healthcare in Macedonia is a disaster in general so that isn't helping either.

Quote:
Jobs: eg, If you look at the distribution of foreign investment into Macedonia and where those investments go you will see that there has been an almost complete deliberate avoidance to place companies that employ large numbers of people in Albanian majority regions.

Most investment goes to central and eastern Macedonia.
This is because statistically the east of the Republic is poorer than the west and is also less developed in almost any perspective.
Probistip, Sveti Nikole, Delcevo...are almost "dead" towns.
The biggest percentage of the country's GDP comes from Skopje and the western part, and unemployment rates have historically been much, much higher in the east than the west.
So as you see, again it has nothing to do with the ethnicity of the population.

Quote:
Macedonia has one of the highest employment rates in the world..around (30%) in Albanian regions its almost impossible to find employed people outside the government sector or small family run businesses the unemployment rate is around 70%

Whats the purpose of all this disparity of public funds?
Albanians will say that purpose is to make, life as difficult and uncomfortable as possible to that they MIGRATE and leave... after all one can't live a normal life without basic services and income.

Most Albanian families live off remittances sent from family abroad, this is their life line to survival
You just described Macedonia in general mate, not just the Albanian-populated areas.
Again, equality you wants - equality you gets.

Quote:
There needs to be some form or legal protection to ensure parity, not more not less.. if you want loyal citizens, openly discriminating with basic funding isn't going to help.
Oh, you haven't heard? There IS a form of legal protection since some 15-16 years ago, it's called "Ohrid Framework Agreement".
It's what prevented me from becoming a policeman AND a professional soldier since in both cases the candidates that got the jobs were Albanians. "The OFA requires so", they said.
Albanians in Macedonia today can speak ,learn, read, write and educate themselves in their own language, there is a guaranteed quote of 25% of all state employees being Albanians (if you've read it by any chance, there was a post of mine about some 1700 state employees that actually don't even show up for work and yet receive monthly paychecks simply because they're Albanians) and their language is official in municipalities where they make up 25% of the population.
Face it - Albanians in Macedonia have more rights than in any other country (except Albania and the protectorate of Kosovo, of course) and yet every time they want more and more.
Don't bite the hand that feeds Albo.
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Old 01-09-2017, 08:50 AM   #29
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Very well put, Dragan.

The NLA cut off electricity and supplies to several ethnic Macedonian villages in Tetovo, kidnapped scores of men working in the fields, and gave the villagers an ultimatum to leave the villages or else (all in the name of equal rights, of course). Then these same Albanians and their leaders were given positions of power and amnesty -- and expected to be treated as heroes.

This terrorist incursion was, in part, funded by profits from the drug trade that the Albanians so eagerly and overwhelmingly participate in compared to the Macedonians. Most of the problems faced by the Albanian populace in Macedonia today stems from within, not from without. Those problems that do come from the outside are the same problems the rest of Macedonia's citizens face -- regardless of ethnicity.

The Albanian element in Macedonia should be on their knees begging for forgiveness instead of on a pedestal preaching for greater rights.
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Old 01-09-2017, 10:31 AM   #30
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Quote:
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I believe that multi ethnic societies only function effectively when there is good will, understanding, consensus and respect for all.This may sound utopian in the Balkans, but its the only way forward if we want to prosper and forget the past.

Tell that to your fellow Albanians in the former mixed-populated villages in the 2001 conflict regions.
They provided logistics and helped the terrorists expel and burn the houses of the Macedonians, literally their own next-door neighbors.

The "good will, understanding, consensus and respect for all" isn't a one way street, if you want it to work it must come from both sides.
You can't burn your neighbor's house and expect him to respect you after that and pretend it never happened.
Dragan.... I'm talking about moving forward and trying to change things for the better of all communities
I'm not talking about remaining in 2001. It was a war, tragic things happen in wartime, we either choose to dwell on the past or try and move forward..
If we keep going tit for tat like who did what to who we will get nowhere..

My relatives had their homes and businesses burnt down in Bitola by angry Macedonians during the war, what did they do wrong, they had nothing to do with the war and were almost wiped out. What about luboten.. a village where there was no fighting.. Tarcullovski goes in and innocent men women and children die.. he goes to the Hague is supported by the government is later freed and now a deputy .. should we all dwell on this?
What do we gain?


Quote:
Quote:
Infrastructure: eg, Did you know that most roads water systems in Albanian villagers are paid for by locals and the diaspora?

Have you ever traveled by car to the eastern part of the Republic?
Any Macedonian can tell you that road infrastructure in the western part is several times better than the one in the east.

A simple rockslide after Kocani on the Veles - Delcevo highway can cut off Makedonska Kamenica, Delcevo and the surrounding villages because there are no alternative roads to there.

Or if there are, they're narrow, steep, dirt roads that can be a nightmare in the slightest rain.
Yes I have been to some parts of central and eastern Macedonia and I've seen the roads they aren't great I agree.. but the situation is different in the west.
There is only one highway that you must be referring to thats the Gostivar - Tetovo - Skopje one..

This isn't a new road its been around for a while and has at least 4 pay tolls on it.. the terrain its built on is flat and is a national highway.. the road your mentioning isn't a national highway as far as I'm aware,?

The problem isn't the payed highways.. but roads linking very large villages where there are 1,000-10,000 inhabitants which are virtually in existent in the east due to migration to the cities (mostly during Yugoslavia)
But are very common in the western region.

A village of 5,000 people shouldn't have to rely on a local road or sewage systems or water treatment plants being built with diaspora and local funding.. This doesn't occur in Macedonian majority regions.. it's very very common in Albanians inhabited regions, I can't stress it enough that its a big issue that has been going on for a very long time and needs to be addressed.



Quote:
Quote:
Look at Skopje, and the clear disparity from each side of the river, the Albanian districts in Cair, Gazi Baba and Butel looks like ghettos, they still don't have proper running water and sewage systems in place.

This isn't the case in Centar, Illinden , Aerodrom Gjorce Petrov ect. now is it?

Since the earthquake in Skopje there has been no plan or funding to bring the Albanian districts to some form of parity to the Macedonian ones.

The level of urbanization in each city is the same whether you live in America, Europe, Australia - the center of the city is most urbanized and as you go outward it is less and less urban.It also depends on locations of landmarks and public buildings.
Just look at where each district you named is geographically located in Skopje and that will answer your question.

It has nothing to do with the ethnic diversity of the districts.
Are you serious, I'm not sure how well you know the location of these neighborhoods, these Albanian neighborhoods are predominantly a stone throw from the city center, and they have been deliberately underfunded in all sectors by whomever has been in power for decades..

Many people accuse Albanians of wanting to divide the country, with projects like Skopje 2014 the Macedonian leadership (VMRO) has made clear divisions between "Us and Them"
The division is institutional, direct and deliberate with the clear agender of state funded segregation.

Quote:
Quote:
Hospitals: We all know that most hospitals are terrible in Macedonia but the ability to access medical assistance in Albanian regions is a lot more difficult and scarce especially in remote areas even though they have large populations.

Again,geography plays a significant role since most of western Macedonia is a mountainous region, so accessing medical help (along many other things) is difficult.

And yes, healthcare in Macedonia is a disaster in general so that isn't helping either.
Even in remote regions where you have lagre populations there need to be state funded basic medical services on hand, eg Clinics, Ambulances, Pharmacies...
This is not asking for too much I believe!

Quote:
Quote:
Jobs: eg, If you look at the distribution of foreign investment into Macedonia and where those investments go you will see that there has been an almost complete deliberate avoidance to place companies that employ large numbers of people in Albanian majority regions.

Most investment goes to central and eastern Macedonia.

This is because statistically the east of the Republic is poorer than the west and is also less developed in almost any perspective.
Probistip, Sveti Nikole, Delcevo...are almost "dead" towns.

The biggest percentage of the country's GDP comes from Skopje and the western part, and unemployment rates have historically been much, much higher in the east than the west.

So as you see, again it has nothing to do with the ethnicity of the population.
What statistics show that the west has more jobs and investment historically than the east?

Gruevski opened many economic free zones in places like shtip.and prilep where he would proudly boast about how many jobs he's crated...


Manufacturing and production factories from foreign or local investment virtually don't exist in Albanian majority regions..

Quote:
Quote:
Macedonia has one of the highest employment rates in the world..around (30%) in Albanian regions its almost impossible to find employed people outside the government sector or small family run businesses the unemployment rate is around 70%

Whats the purpose of all this disparity of public funds?
Albanians will say that purpose is to make, life as difficult and uncomfortable as possible to that they MIGRATE and leave... after all one can't live a normal life without basic services and income.

Most Albanian families live off remittances sent from family abroad, this is their life line to survival

You just described Macedonia in general mate, not just the Albanian-populated areas.
Again, equality you wants - equality you gets.
70% Unemployment doesn't exist in the Macedonian. community, It's not the same.

Migration for survival is new to the Macedonians or not as prevalent as it has been in the Albanian community since the days.of Yugoslavia, we have so many people working in Europe and America simply so families can survive in Macedonia [/quote]


Quote:
Quote:
There needs to be some form or legal protection to ensure parity, not more not less.. if you want loyal citizens, openly discriminating with basic funding isn't going to help.

Oh, you haven't heard? There IS a form of legal protection since some 15-16 years ago, it's called "Ohrid Framework Agreement".

It's what prevented me from becoming a policeman AND a professional soldier since in both cases the candidates that got the jobs were Albanians."The OFA required so",they said.

Albanians in Macedonia today can speak ,learn, read, educate themselves in their own language, there is a guaranteed quote of 25% of all state employees being Albanians (if you've read it by any chance, there was a post of mine about some 1700 state employees that actually don't even show up for work and yet receive monthly paychecks simply because they're Albanians) and their language is official in municipalities where they make up 25% of the population.

Face it - Albanians in Macedonia have more rights than in any other country (except Albania and the protectorate of Kosovo, of course) and yet every time they want more and more.
Don't bite the hand that feeds Albo.
We all know the Ohrid Agreement 16 years on still hasn't been implimented, and most of these demands from the new joint platform are mostly with the air of the FA but worded with more detail.

With the issue of thousands of Albanians receiving a paycheck and staying at home, I agree is outrageous pathetic and unacceptable on all fronts..

I have family members who have finished university have officially been given a job, but stay home because they are told " We have nothing for you to do" or " We are trying to fit you in - but we can't"

The reason they "can't fot them in" is simple in the eyes of the Albanians. (Don't know if Macedonians see it this way) but, The word is that VMRO would rather have these young employed people stay at home like parasites draining public funds where they have no chance to form any type of career or future within the state system..

This will on paper show that we are meeting FA targets, but the whole idea with the positive discrimination law is to create more loyalty to the system by being part of it and not excluded from it as was the case prior to 2001..

In fact by not allowing any type of access to basic level entry jobs within state institutions like ministries you halt any type of future development up the chain of command where real decisions and differences are made. So allowing them to to stay home without any imput is or at least has been seen as more valuable than allowing access to the system by the Macedonian leadership - (mostly VMRO as they have been in power mostly since the implementation of the FA)

As for Albanians having more rights than anyone in the Balkans.. See - Serbs of Kosovo

5% of the population Serbian is official throughout the country.

5% Are guaranteed 20 seats in the parliament (as many as then Albanians have with 25% of the population in Macedonia) regardless how many vote.

Let me not get into local territorial special provisions and parallel institutions and veto rights.. But that's all another issue..
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