Russia, Ukraine and the West

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  • Redsun
    Member
    • Jul 2013
    • 409

    How long can this conversation about the media blame game go on for?

    All I can think about is an article I read some time ago about the US war dolphins, and Sea lions deployed in Ukraine, wasn’t there a conversation on some article about some “black water” being deployed in Ukraine. Has any small unit troops from Europe been deployed yet, for peacekeeping? Where’s the military intelligence?

    What ever happened to an official military report, Ukraine is currently a military hotspot with all the advanced radar and technology systems currently in the area, I thought there would be some knowledge on the matter.

    From what I have read, I do think it was a Russian separatist. A single person fired the shot, incorrect judgment of the individual or ordered on incorrect judgment.
    Last edited by Redsun; 07-20-2014, 09:32 PM.

    Comment

    • George S.
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2009
      • 10116

      a Russian official might have fired it.THe separatists tried to tamper with the bodies to make it look like it was the ukraines that did it.No one is willing to comment on the military intelligence.What the soviets are doing is denying they were responsible .The us knows who or what fired the missile.
      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
      GOTSE DELCEV

      Comment

      • Phoenix
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2008
        • 4671

        Originally posted by George S. View Post
        a Russian official might have fired it.THe separatists tried to tamper with the bodies to make it look like it was the ukraines that did it.No one is willing to comment on the military intelligence.What the soviets are doing is denying they were responsible .The us knows who or what fired the missile.
        George S, you sound like Tony Abbott...

        Comment

        • George S.
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2009
          • 10116

          Whils't that may be the case ,they reckon real intelligence has found the Russians may have fired the missile missile ay have supplied the seperatis with.The us actually know where the missile has come from using their own technology.Phoenix do you believe the seratists didn't fire the missile it was the ukrainiens.Tony Abott nhe probably knows a whole lot more as he was in Washington and they gave him the intelligence.
          Nothing changes who ever has pulled the trigger is guilty as and that's why they tried to tamper with the evidence.Alkso why take the bodies away especially when investigators were coming.The trains were supposed to be refrigerated but didn't look like they e
          were.Phoenix you are a commie you would like opur Australia to become the country a basket case.Sounds all too familiarPhoenix you laborite you prefer taxes like the carbon tax ,are you saving nothing.You prefer spending like there is no tomorrow racking up huge debts.To live beyond your means.I'm no tony Abbott but I happen to believe in a responsible govt.I hope labor NEVER gets back in.Its fucked Australia real BAD.note to phoenix I was once a laborite I voted for labor ,my whole family voted for labor not anymore,they have done virtually irreparable damage to the country.You would have to be silly to vote for them.I'm not saying there are others better but anything else must be better than labor as they don't recommend fixing the mess they have created.Youd think a carbon tax will fix the pollution carbon is not a [pollution it is only a rare gas made up of less than 1 percent of gases in the atmosphere.The real reason on the agenda is to REDISTRIBUTE peoples wealth to the poor countries in the earth.Suppossedly they are going to fix their contribution of pollution.The money raised was meant to be carbon credits to the un,Some country is going to squander that money OUR money that LABOR wants to just give away.
          Last edited by George S.; 07-21-2014, 10:35 AM.
          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
          GOTSE DELCEV

          Comment

          • Phoenix
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2008
            • 4671

            George,

            Tony Abbott has a bad habit of shooting his mouth off before all the facts are known.
            An example of this was when Australia got the lead role in the hunt for the missing MH370 and Abbott announced to the world that the missing plane had been detected...I'll remind you that the hunt for MH370 is still on, many months after Abbott's foolish declaration.

            So it is with his rabid attack on the Russian side in this latest tragedy.
            Shooting his mouth off at the Russian leadership without any credible evidence one way or the other as to determine exactly where the blame lies in this terrible tragedy.

            Comment

            • George S.
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2009
              • 10116

              How did he shoot his mouth off he relied on advice from experts in their field a big let down.When you think of it we are all shooting our mouths on.But as I said at the moment .I think abott has done well even though you can be wrong as better than your labor party.The labor party couldn't have done any better they won't even admit when they are wrong.Where as I'm sure abott is man enough to admit when they been wrong.
              Don't forget it took them 2years to find the air france.I didn't say that abott got it right on the fisrt air disaster I'm sure he is man enough to admit it.I'm not sticking up for the man.
              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
              GOTSE DELCEV

              Comment

              • George S.
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2009
                • 10116

                Phoenix did you see Julia Bishop's speech in the un where she got a lot of support even Russia had to say yes ,surprising??She shouldn't go to the un to get support countries especially like Russia in the top seat should have openly condemned things.
                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                GOTSE DELCEV

                Comment

                • George S.
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 10116

                  phoenix don't think that I'm a liberal voter but a swinging voter.As it stands I will vote only for the liberal party as no other party meets my standard.You understand what a swinging voter is,Just I agree on some things doesn't make me a FULL supporter of Abbott.Common sense has to prevail otherwise I won't vote for anyone might as well as tear up the vote.If you are a labor voter why are you a labor voter.What are you getting in return???I'm so pissed off with labor & I hate the unions who are ripping its members money off.
                  I heard on radio that Russia is not happy to cooperate with the world even though it sais yay to free and unfettered access.
                  Last edited by George S.; 07-21-2014, 05:02 PM.
                  "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                  GOTSE DELCEV

                  Comment

                  • Redsun
                    Member
                    • Jul 2013
                    • 409

                    How did the thread progress into this?

                    Was it necessary to mention these political parties?

                    “Tony Abbot’s Speech,” forget Liberal or Labor party debates, my concern as an Australian citizen is how the world perceives us as Australians. We are suppose to be a laid back country, regardless of political party K.Rudd may not have been in power long enough to make a great impact for the country, he was though a great Australian representative.

                    I cannot comment on Tony Abbot’s speech, if anything I was disappointed with his lack of compassion. I couldn’t help but wonder how K.Rudd would have treated the situation; he would have been more sensitive to the victims’ families and may have addressed it in a more appropriate manner. You may be thinking K.Rudd is a soft cock, I agree, he may not have anything to show for himself as he never really had the “time” to implement change in the country ( I don’t know why people judge him, judge him on what? What did he manage to accomplish before he was booted twice? If he was in power for a couple of years, yes we could say that’s a long enough time period for us to decided if he is competent or incompetent). I would have preferred Rudd to represent the country on matters like this; Tony’s mouth acts like a separatist.

                    A conversation I found myself in last night… Someone asked “if Australia was bordering Russia would have Tony’s speech been totally different.” His is literally on the other side of the world, talking tough. Hopefully the world doesn’t take his speech too seriously and think of us as tough talking wankers that don’t rely on any evidence, because that’s not the case.

                    Not that it matters, I’m a Labor voter by the way.

                    George - If you are a labor voter why are you a labor voter. What are you getting in return???

                    Same could be asked to you bro what are you getting from the liberals?

                    If my family had a business worth 10 million I may consider voting Liberal, and still wouldn’t. I don’t understand why others would vote for it.

                    The reason I vote for Labor is, I’m in my twenties a lot of my friends are starting families at the moment, and having their first children they are all Labor voters. Why, because it benefits them, last time I voted I had no faith in Liberal or Labor and thought it was senseless, but that’s the thing “what can either offer me”? I don’t want to see people struggling, so I vote for Labor.

                    Comment

                    • Phoenix
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2008
                      • 4671

                      Originally posted by Redsun View Post
                      How did the thread progress into this?

                      Was it necessary to mention these political parties?

                      “Tony Abbot’s Speech,” forget Liberal or Labor party debates, my concern as an Australian citizen is how the world perceives us as Australians. We are suppose to be a laid back country, regardless of political party K.Rudd may not have been in power long enough to make a great impact for the country, he was though a great Australian representative.

                      I cannot comment on Tony Abbot’s speech, if anything I was disappointed with his lack of compassion. I couldn’t help but wonder how K.Rudd would have treated the situation; he would have been more sensitive to the victims’ families and may have addressed it in a more appropriate manner. You may be thinking K.Rudd is a soft cock, I agree, he may not have anything to show for himself as he never really had the “time” to implement change in the country ( I don’t know why people judge him, judge him on what? What did he manage to accomplish before he was booted twice? If he was in power for a couple of years, yes we could say that’s a long enough time period for us to decided if he is competent or incompetent). I would have preferred Rudd to represent the country on matters like this; Tony’s mouth acts like a separatist.

                      A conversation I found myself in last night… Someone asked “if Australia was bordering Russia would have Tony’s speech been totally different.” His is literally on the other side of the world, talking tough. Hopefully the world doesn’t take his speech too seriously and think of us as tough talking wankers that don’t rely on any evidence, because that’s not the case.

                      Not that it matters, I’m a Labor voter by the way.

                      George - If you are a labor voter why are you a labor voter. What are you getting in return???

                      Same could be asked to you bro what are you getting from the liberals?

                      If my family had a business worth 10 million I may consider voting Liberal, and still wouldn’t. I don’t understand why others would vote for it.

                      The reason I vote for Labor is, I’m in my twenties a lot of my friends are starting families at the moment, and having their first children they are all Labor voters. Why, because it benefits them, last time I voted I had no faith in Liberal or Labor and thought it was senseless, but that’s the thing “what can either offer me”? I don’t want to see people struggling, so I vote for Labor.
                      Interesting views Redsun,

                      Rudd will go down in Australian political history of a somewhat maligned leader by many Australians.
                      Interestingly, he was a very respected leader on the world stage, particularly by the Chinese and US administration.

                      Much on this subject is written in a book that I've just started reading called 'The Rise and Fall of Australia' by Nick Bryant who argues about the decline of Australian politics and the qualities of its recent leaders and political parties...

                      Comment

                      • Carlin
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2011
                        • 3332

                        On Israel, Ukraine and Truth, JOHN PILGER


                        On 2 May, in Odessa, 41 ethnic Russians were burned alive in the trade union headquarters with police standing by. There is horrifying video evidence. The Right Sector leader Dmytro Yarosh hailed the massacre as “another bright day in our national history”. In the American and British media, this was reported as a “murky tragedy” resulting from “clashes” between “nationalists” (neo-Nazis) and “separatists” (people collecting signatures for a referendum on a federal Ukraine). The New York Times buried it, having dismissed as Russian propaganda warnings about the fascist and anti-Semitic policies of Washington’s new clients. The Wall Street Journal damned the victims – “Deadly Ukraine Fire Likely Sparked by Rebels, Government Says”. Obama congratulated the junta for its “restraint”.


                        Ukraine admits it shot down Russian airliner, 13 Oct 2001


                        Ukraine finally admitted yesterday that its military shot down a Russian airliner that crashed into the Black Sea last week, killing all 78 passengers and crew.

                        Evhen Marchuk, the chairman of Ukraine's security council, conceded that the plane had probably been brought down by "an accidental hit from an S-200 rocket fired during exercises".

                        Russian investigators believe a missile exploded near the plane, spraying it with shrapnel. Russian and Israeli scientists found metal pellets in the victims and in the fuselage.

                        Vladimir Rushailo, the chairman of Russia's security council, said: "The investigation has found that the disaster resulted from a strike by a warhead from an anti-aircraft missile."

                        Although both Russia and Ukraine were almost certainly aware of the cause from the start, it took eight days for Ukraine to accept responsibility.

                        Comment

                        • Vangelovski
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 8531

                          Not John Pilger...
                          If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                          The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                          Comment

                          • Redsun
                            Member
                            • Jul 2013
                            • 409

                            Sounds like a book worth reading, “decline of Australian politics and the qualities of its recent leaders and political parties” A collective concern shared by many, about time it has been addressed in written form, we can’t keep ignoring the fact that this is one of the main factors retarding our economy.

                            How can we prevent this decline?

                            Democracy itself has been manipulated in a sense that the voting system can be easily influenced through the media. Most voters decisions are made on instinct rather than knowledge, instinct based on bullshit smear campaigns. I find it disturbing that a commercial can have such an effect on the population.

                            I think it is important that there is a review on the school curriculum, can barely remember if history was compulsory for 3 years, I remember 6 months of History class was dedicated to Aboriginal studies, nothing wrong with that it was the biggest bludge we done finger painting in year 9 this was compulsory, I remember sitting up in class and looking around at my classmates thinking what the?

                            I believe an “Australian political history” class in school should be made compulsory, I don’t understand why we allow so many young people to leave school each year, have them enroll on the voting register with no clear knowledge on how the country and legislation has progressed throughout history.

                            Is this democracy, when less than 15 percent of the population actually understands the political spectrum and the movement of the nation and the rest are just voting for what their parents are voting for or what the tv said?

                            Thanks for mentioning the book Phoenix I wouldn’t mind having a read.
                            Last edited by Redsun; 07-21-2014, 08:39 PM.

                            Comment

                            • George S.
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2009
                              • 10116

                              guys I heard on the radio how the seperatists were caught on their two way radio talking how they were going to fire the missile and make it look like it was the ukranians.Tdvisors etcHey may have been assisted by Russians etc
                              Also groundbreaking news that abott is going to send troops to the ukrajne. think its both sas crack troops as well as the infrantry men .to keep the crash investigators safe may be as well lend the ukranians a hand.I think the way they said it kick some Russian arse for killing the 36 Australian civilians.Hooray give it to them.
                              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                              GOTSE DELCEV

                              Comment

                              • Redsun
                                Member
                                • Jul 2013
                                • 409

                                This is what I said in post #226 – “From what I have read, I do think it was a Russian separatist.”

                                I don’t disagree with you.

                                G - I think the way they said it kick some Russian arse for killing the 36 Australian civilians.

                                I hope our troops don’t have to engage in battle, just a recovery and defense mission. Hang on a second, wasn’t it recently reported that a train with the victims arrived in Kharkiv and the black box had been handed over, haven’t the separatist already vacated that site?

                                When was this statement released about Australian troops being sent into Ukraine?

                                Comment

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