Alleged Human Rights "issues" of ethnic Albanians in Macedonia

[DraganOfStip]

Looks like Albanians in Macedonia are showing how dedicated they are to their country of Macedonia and protecting it...giving the same Albanian symbol that they gave in the Greek army. This time over a dozen Albanians stationed in Veles barracks.

I swear I can almost hear Albo typing that the object in the barracks where they were situated is just a stone-throw away from the barracks center and yet living conditions in it are intolerable compared to other buildings where Macedonian soldiers are situated...
Or that their rifles are older and more rusty, and Macedonian soldiers get the best rifles at their expense...

..."Shqiperie Ime" also claims that, besides Albanians, among the group of soldiers showing eagles with their hands, there are also soldiers-Macedonians who wanted to show respect for the soldiers of Albanian nationality...

Yeah, I kinda have my doubts...

[vicsinad]

To emphasize my point about Albanian grievances do not warrant violence, and that Greater Albania and partition fueled the war, I'll quote from a US 2001 Congressional Hearing on the matter.

This is from: The Crisis in Macedonia and US Engagement in the Balkans. Hearing Before the Committee on Foreign Relations in the United States Senate, 107th Congress. June 13, 2001.

From Senator Jesse Helms:

Now, within the past few months, things have changed. Ethnic
Albanian terrorists are today using violence in an effort to under
mine Macedonia's stability. Indeed, I am impressed by the restraint
with which the Government of Macedonia has responded to these
vicious attacks. Now, I realize that there are legitimate Albanian
grievances in Macedonia, but none warranting a turn to violence.

From Ambassador James Pardew:

No one should mistake the position of the United States administration. We absolutely oppose the NLA's use of violence to undermine the democratically elected Macedonian Government and its leaders. We condemn the NLA's apparent effort to provoke an overreaction by the government against Albanian citizens in order to bolster their support from the ethnic Albanian community.

That insurgency grew. Our estimate now is that it is probably
around 1,000 fighters. Its composition is complex and, as you indicated, decentralized in many ways, but perhaps more centralized than what we encountered in southern Serbia. About 1,000 fighters. It has support both in Macedonia from the population and some from Kosovo and some from Albania, largely from those people who believe in the concept of a Greater Albania, a more extreme element of the Albanian community.

I think the objectives of these people who are running this insurgency are personal power for themselves, and they are pretty flexible on what they would accept. I think some of them would like to see this romantic notion of a Greater Albania, but that's probably a very small element. I think some of them would like to partition Macedonia.

[DraganOfStip]

Darn, first I had problems locating this discussion since it was originally in the "latest news and developments" thread.
Then when I found out it was moved to another thread I kept searching in the "general discussions" area before somehow eventually finding it in the "news and politics" area...
Anyway, i still wait on Albo's answer regarding this:

How about celebrating holidays with a Macedonian flag instead of Albanian?
During holidays there are heaps of Albanian flags in municipalities with an Albanian majority but not a single Macedonian flag?
I see you have no problem your flag to be placed next to the flags of USA or EU or even NATO, but why is it so painful for it to be placed next to the flag of the country you actually live in?

How about Ahmeti (like many other Albanians here) actually try to learn some Macedonian, the official language of the country of his birth and in whose governments he participates in for over 15 years now, as act of symbolism?
Why is it so painful for him to speak the official language of the country?

How about Albanians proudly singing the Macedonian national anthem instead of booing it, as a symbolism of their loyalty to this country?

[Albo]

Originally Posted by DraganOfStip View Post
How about celebrating holidays with a Macedonian flag instead of Albanian?
During holidays there are heaps of Albanian flags in municipalities with an Albanian majority but not a single Macedonian flag?
I see you have no problem your flag to be placed next to the flags of USA or EU or even NATO, but why is it so painful for it to be placed next to the flag of the country you actually live in?

Well maybe because there was no debate when the flag was changed.. Albanians see the flag as imposed upon them without any consultation or debate..
Look at Kosovo 95% Albanian population and no symbols that represent the overwhelming majority..
The national anthem has no lyrics.. all for the 5% Minorities living in it..

Do you think it was easy for Albanians to accept a new flag and anthem when they are 95% of the population.. considering the thousands of people that were expelled and killed in the name of that flag (Albanian Flag) and what it represents.

How about Albanians proudly singing the Macedonian national anthem instead of booing it, as a symbolism of their loyalty to this country?

Again to raise a flag and sing a national anthem with pride..you need to have some form of relation with it... and believe in what it represents or who it represents..
It may sound difficult to understand but Albanians see no affiliation with the current flag and anthem which is the main reason they are so linked to the Albanian Flag..

Albanians don't see the Albanian Flag as the flag of Albania but as the flag of the Albanians regardless of where they live. The flag existed and was used throughout our independence struggle long before the Albanian state existed.. so Albanians will always see the red and black flag as something that their ancestors fought and died for and will always be the key identifying symbol regardless where they live..

[vicsinad]

Again to raise a flag and sing a national anthem with pride..you need to have some form of relation with it... and believe in what it represents or who it represents..
It may sound difficult to understand but Albanians see no affiliation with the current flag and anthem which is the main reason they are so linked to the Albanian Flag..

Let me get this straight. You claim that Albanians were some sort of factor in the forming of the Krushevo Repbulic, that Albanians were supplying a significant number of weapons, and that Pitu Guli may have been half Albanian. Well, let's look at the national anthem:

Today over Macedonia, is being born
the new sun of liberty.
Macedonians are fighting,
fighting for their rights!
Macedonians are fighting,
fighting for their rights!

Now once again the flag stands
(that) of the Kruševo Republic
Gotse Delchev, Pitu Guli
Dame Gruev, Sandanski!
Goce Delchev, Pitu Guli
Dame Gruev, Sandanski!

The Forests of Macedonia are singing
new songs, new newspapers!
Macedonia is liberated
Lives in liberty!
Macedonia is liberated
Lives in liberty!


Now, if what you said is true, Albanians should be rejoicing that the bold part of the anthem incorporates part of Albanian history.

Second, how is that national anthem not representative of Albanians? Is the anthem talking about "Forests of macedonia" other than Albanian-populated forests in Macedonia? Is liberty of Macedonia something that doesn't jive well with Albanians? Are you not a Macedonian if you were born and live in Macedonia? Is someone preventing you from singing the song in Albanian?

You say Pitu Guli is Albanian and that Albanians were significant factors in the Krusevo rebellion. Those are mentioned in the anthem.

Either you really don't believe that about Pitu Guli and Krushevo, or you have another agenda.

[Albo]

Are you not a Macedonian if you were born and live in Macedonia?
So all the Macedonians in Albania are Albanian or Macedonian?

Look it's not about having another agenda...
It's about not giving ammunition to those who want to make excuses to divide the people of Macedonia..

It's a fact that Macedonians want to de-Albanianize Macedonia as much as possible isn't a hidden secret..(just look at Skopje 2014)

The fact that Albanians want to be more factorized also isn't a secret... now the secret formula to put an end to all these ethnic issues is to deal with them once and for all ...

Until common ground can be found through dialog and concensus between the two groups where nothing is taken away from any said, we will continue to go around in circles chasing our tails and going nowhere while the rest of the region moves forward...

The reality is that Macedonia has the lowest average income in the Balkans and it's best and brightest have left or are leaving the country in droves..
This effects all ethnic communities... Macedonia has toxic leaders at the helm.. change is needed fast or there will be no people left to fight for...

Look
This article shows that in 2015 there were 6500 less students enrolled in elementary schools across the country than the year before..

http://ina-online.net/ne-maqedoni-sivjet-6-500-nxenes-me-pak/

This year 4300 less students enrolled into high schools

http://www.tetova1.mk/2017/01/24/rrenie-drastike-e-arsimit-ne-maqedoni-per-nje-vit-4300-nxenes-me-pak/

These numbers are spread across all communities... this type of news doesn't make the 18:00 sitel news..

These are the problems that need focusing on...
People see no perspective in Macedonia.. almost everyone wants to leave ..

A massive change is needed in direction and attitude.. this is where both communities can find common ground...
Albanians seem to have made a huge step forward by up to 70k votes going to sdsm..
This I see as a positive step towards working together for a Greater cause...
Zaev has promised virtually noting.. but shows that he sees the situation on the ground and true change can't come unless Albanian issues are solved once and for all..
Albanians halved the amount of votes they last gave to DUI.
This was a big move forward.. saying enough...
On the other hand after all the embarrassing recordings that we all heard.. VMRO should have been severely deleted into oblivion at the ballot box..
This didn't happen..

[Gocka]

Albo,

When Albanians move to Switzerland, Italy, Germany or the USA, do they demand that the flags and national anthems of those countries be changed so that they reflect a certain amount of Albanian-ness? No, they do not, they learn German, Italian, and English, assimilate and maintain their culture in a personal setting.

So why is Macedonia any different? Why don't you learn Macedonian, respect the Macedonian Flag, and assimilate. Then in your communities and homes speak whatever you like to each other, celebrate your holidays, maintain your culture. Why do Albanians in Macedonia feel the need to make Macedonia more Albanian. Why don't they want Switzerland to be more Albanian?

The key difference is, and you haven't admitted it outright yet, but Albanians in Macedonia think that at least parts of Macedonia belong to them and that they should not be a minority to Macedonians.

Just look at all the Albanian soccer players around Europe. Mustafi (Germany) Xhaka (Swiss) Behrami (Swiss), Shaqiri (Swiss) why don't they play for Albania? Because they assimilated, and it doesn't bother them. If these payers lived in Macedonia, they would play for Albania not Macedonia.

Face it, its not us, its you. You're the ones that don't want to live with us in our country, because you think its your country.

[DraganOfStip]

Well maybe because there was no debate when the flag was changed.. Albanians see the flag as imposed upon them without any consultation or debate..

There was no debate with the Macedonians when the flag was changed either. It is imposed to us as much as it is imposed to you.
Just visit the thread "The Ventilator" on this very forum and you'll see how Macedonians feel about the flag. But you don't see Macedonian national teams booing it or burning it for the matter. The flag was changed by politicians after great international pressure (mostly by Greece and countries where they have big influence) and following an economic embargo that was devastating to our economy. The Macedonian people didn't have a say whether they accept the new flag, it was voted in the parliament by politicians. And yet, as much as most Macedonians don't like it, it is still the official flag of the country and is treated with respect as such. Something that can't be said for the Albanians.

Look at Kosovo 95% Albanian population and no symbols that represent the overwhelming majority..
The national anthem has no lyrics.. all for the 5% Minorities living in it..
Do you think it was easy for Albanians to accept a new flag and anthem when they are 95% of the population.. considering the thousands of people that were expelled and killed in the name of that flag (Albanian Flag) and what it represents.

I'm not familiar with Kosovo symbols and how/if they were voted or they were imposed, but the fact that it has only 5% minorities is because most of the non-Albanian population was either expelled or left Kosovo fearing for their lives after the 1999 NATO intervention and subsequent KLA retaliatory actions. But that's another topic altogether.

Again to raise a flag and sing a national anthem with pride..you need to have some form of relation with it... and believe in what it represents or who it represents..
It may sound difficult to understand but Albanians see no affiliation with the current flag and anthem which is the main reason they are so linked to the Albanian Flag..

Your people living in this country IS the relation between you and the flag & anthem,mate. When you live in Macedonia you need to respect the national symbols of the country. It is the same for every country in the world. If you move to another country tomorrow you will have to accept that country's flag & anthem and treat them with respect too. Or will you ask that there is an Albanian symbol included in them before you do? Flags and anthems won't change just because some ethnic community isn't satisfied with them. Let's go back to the example of Estonia where 25% of the population are ethnic Russians. Do Russians in Estonia reject the country's flag and anthem because there are no Russian symbols in them? NO, it's the country they live in and they must treat them with the respect they deserve. Same goes for you. This is Macedonia you live in, not Albania. You can't expect Macedonians to treat you with respect if you don't respect the country's symbols.

Albanians don't see the Albanian Flag as the flag of Albania but as the flag of the Albanians regardless of where they live. The flag existed and was used throughout our independence struggle long before the Albanian state existed.. so Albanians will always see the red and black flag as something that their ancestors fought and died for and will always be the key identifying symbol regardless where they live..

And rightfully so, Albanians aren't banned from using their flag here.
However it's an entirely different thing when there is a holiday here and all flags in Tetovo,Gostivar etc are flags of another country, and not a single flag of the country those towns geographically belong to.
Like I said, you can't expect Macedonians improve relations with someone that disrespects Macedonian symbols, even more if that someone lives in the country whose symbols he disrespects.

[Albo]

Albo,

When Albanians move to Switzerland, Italy, Germany or the USA, do they demand that the flags and national anthems of those countries be changed so that they reflect a certain amount of Albanian-ness? No, they do not, they learn German, Italian, and English, assimilate and maintain their culture in a personal setting.

So why is Macedonia any different? Why don't you learn Macedonian, respect the Macedonian Flag, and assimilate. Then in your communities and homes speak whatever you like to each other, celebrate your holidays, maintain your culture. Why do Albanians in Macedonia feel the need to make Macedonia more Albanian. Why don't they want Switzerland to be more Albanian?

How can you compare the two cases?
Albanians who migrate to another country outside of their ancestral lands obviously can't expect more than migrant rights.. compared to a community that has continued to live in the same region for centuries..

Macedonia doesn't need to become Albania.. but Macedonia needs to share sovereignty with Albanians and both communities need each other for the country to function..

Albanians need to understand (like it or not) that Albanians can't break away from Macedonia or create some form of federal unit..

Macedonians need to understand that they can't go on governing without taking Albanian demands for equality seriously, and to undermine their importance in the successful development on Macedonia moving forward.

Just look at all the Albanian soccer players around Europe. Mustafi (Germany) Xhaka (Swiss) Behrami (Swiss), Shaqiri (Swiss) why don't they play for Albania? Because they assimilated, and it doesn't bother them. If these payers lived in Macedonia, they would play for Albania not Macedonia.

The main reason that these players didn't choose to play for Albania is that at the time they played their first game for Switzerland or Germany the Albanian National team was.a joke and the federation was highly corrupt..
It's know that Xhakas father approach the Albanian federation to say that Switzerland wants my son to play for them, he and I would prefer him to play for Albania.. the president of the federation said.. sure pay me €5000 and I'll give your son a go.!

As for Mustafi and Xhemaijli.. who play for Germany and Switzerland are actually from Gostivar and Tetovo.. the Macedonian federation didn't even bother asking them if they wanted to play for Macedonia... the same for Naser Aliaj who is from Kumanovo..

Face it, its not us, its you. You're the ones that don't want to live with us in our country, because you think its your country.

Look it's the Balkans.. this could be said about every minority group in every country that share a border with their ethnic kin.. but this isn't how problems are solved.. the Administrative borders of then balkans haven't been changed since ww2.. I don't think they will change now!

Originally Posted by Albo View Post
...I don't know all the sources that Historians like Popovski and Nexhipi have read.......

You don't seem to know any of them, which further goes to show how uninformed you are about the subject.

Well the fact that I don't know them doesn't mean they don't exist...
For prominent know Historians to make such claims they would have to base their comments on some form of evidence.. they have a reputation that needs them to have some form of answer to what they say..

Look.. as I have said this Uprising isn't widely studied widely amongst Albanians for obvious reasons..
But I'll look into finding out more on the period..and more concrete proof for you and myself.!!

I don't need to, because, for the umpteenth time, I have never denied that there may have been some ethnic Albanians that supported the Macedonian revolutionaries, just like you shouldn't deny that the overwhelming majority of ethnic Albanians were against them.

I would say that the majority of Albanians were indifferent to the Uprising.. do you have proof that the majority were against it as you say??

You initially stated that ethnic Albanians provided "most of the weapons" for the Macedonian revolutionaries in Krusevo.

Ok let's just say that "weapons were also supplied by Albanians"
Due to there being to detailed itinerary on weapon stocks and ethnic background of their origin.. :-p
We have no documented proof either way do we?

Sources from the time indicate he was a Vlach. You came here calling him "half Albanian" as a matter of fact and now, again, you're changing your story by saying that "maybe" there was some ethnic Albanian in his heritage. Honestly, get a hold of yourself, you're all over the place.

I was referring to Vlado Popovski's comments that there are indications that he was Albanian...
Why would Vlado Popovski make that up?

But having said that.. there is another theory that says that communist Historians overplayed the role that Albanians played to create a stronger unified relations between Albanians and Macedonians. This also holds some weight ..
Sure, that holds some weight.

Yes.. I knew you would agree to this somewhat!

I feel like I am interacting with a child here. I read it. Yes, it indicates that there were 20-20-20 in the council. It says nothing about Albanians being one group of those 20's, which is what you were erroneously trying to insinuate earlier. Get it?

Ok what communities were involved in the 20 20 20 split then? If Albanians weren't involved..

I already sent you the wiki link quoting multiple sources

Amongst the various ethno-religious groups (millets) in Kruševo a Republican Council was elected with 60 members - 20 representatives from each one: Aromanians (Vlachs); Slav-, Vlach- and Albanian-speaking Greek Patriarchists and Macedonian Bulgarians (Exarchists).[7][8][9][10][11] The Council also elected an executive body - the Provisional Government, with six members (2 from each mentioned group),[12] whose duty was to promote law and order and manage supplies, finances, and medical care.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kru%C5%A1evo_Republic

The Albanian Renaissance unlike other Balkan people wasn't exclusively religious based.
Albanian "renaissance", nice. Do you think the Shkendija supporters who chant "ubi, ubi, ubi kaura" (kill, kill, kill the infidel) are inclusive of Catholic and Orthodox Christian Albanians?

Seriously is that the best you have on this.. Using hooligan Shkendija chants as academia..
Let's not get into soccer chanting.. where Macedonians and Serbs started the while "ubi ubi shiptari" chants
Not to mention "gas Chambers for the Albanians" or "mrtov shiptar dobar shiptar" to mention a few..

Are you suggesting that Catholic and Orthodox Christian Albanians held high positions in the Ottoman Empire?

Obviously the highest positions were held Muslims.. but there were other influential religious and Rum - Milet christian leaders involved..

Well everyone in the Balkans knows that Albanains have historically been recognized as wearers of white skull caps..
Yes, but you can't equate the specific look of a skull cap with just any white hat. Just because some of the people in that old picture happen to be wearing white hats doesn't automatically mean they're Albanians. Unless of course you can clearly identify which one's are actually wearing the white skull cap, which is what I asked you before.

You can clearly see who is wearing a white skull cap I don't need to point them out..
White caps indicate Albanians.. in some cases black also (depending on the region) But black was generally used by Vlachs and other non Albanian people.

Oh and just coincidence maybe but why is this guy on the Ilinden flag wearing a white skull cap and want seems to be a very Albanian looking traditional outfit?

http://makedonija.name/images/history/twentieth_century/ilinden_zname.jpg

There was no debate with the Macedonians when the flag was changed either. It is imposed to us as much as it is imposed to you.
Just visit the thread "The Ventilator" on this very forum and you'll see how Macedonians feel about the flag.

Ok so here something we can agree on... revisiting the flag was one of the issues mentioned in the joint. Albanian declaration...
Maybe we can find common ground on what to change it to se both sides can respect it equally! No?

Your people living in this country IS the relation between you and the flag & anthem,mate. When you live in Macedonia you need to respect the national symbols of the country. It is the same for every country in the world. If you move to another country tomorrow you will have to accept that country's flag & anthem and treat them with respect too.

Yes.. but the difference is the overwhelming majority never "moved" .. I have no relatives in Albania or Kosovo...
We see where we live in Macedonia as ours as much as yours .. and are just as protective if not more than Macedonians of the regions, customs and culture of where we are from!

We need to work together as I have said .. we need to forget nationalistic tendencies and the past.. we need to look forward and move fast.. or we will be left behind in the region..

This is Macedonia you live in, not Albania. You can't expect Macedonians to treat you with respect if you don't respect the country's symbols.

The countries symbols need to reflect that 35% of the population aren't ethnic Macedonian..and that all sides can come together to agree on new symbols... thats when the symbols will be more respected by all!

[DraganOfStip]

Ok so here something we can agree on... revisiting the flag was one of the issues mentioned in the joint. Albanian declaration...
Maybe we can find common ground on what to change it to se both sides can respect it equally! No?

I have already stated somewhere on this forum that the Macedonian flag should have the lion instead of the 8-ray sun (which is practically a ventilator). If the original Macedonian flag with the Kutlesh star had to be removed, then the lion is the next oldest known symbol of Macedonia (search the thread "Macedonian Flags and Coat Of Arms") and deserves to be on the flag of this country.

Then again, in correspondence to reality it should really be a herd of sheep on a red background...

Yes.. but the difference is the overwhelming majority never "moved" .. I have no relatives in Albania or Kosovo...
We see where we live in Macedonia as ours as much as yours .. and are just as protective if not more than Macedonians of the regions, customs and culture of where we are from!

No one said they moved, my point is that whenever you're a minority in a certain country you must abide and live by that country's laws and respect it's symbols. This is how things are throughout the world.
The Russians in Estonia don't demand to be acknowledged in the constitution, nor do they demand their language to be the second official language of the country, nor do they demand to be included in the national anthem, and they don't demand Russian symbols to be included in Estonia's flag either.
In another example, Russians are almost 26% of the population of Latvia. Do they demand to be mentioned in the constitution or national anthem? Do they demand a Russian symbol in the Latvian flag so they can respect it? Do they want mandatory quotas? NO, they abide Latvian laws and respect the flag and anthem, since they are the ones that live in Latvia and not the other way around.
The Hispanics of the US don't demand a sombrero to be added to the stars & stripes, nor do they demand Spanish to be recognized as an official language on the entire US territory, even though they're 18% of the population.
African Americans don't demand that the Lion of Judah or another African symbol is added to the stars & stripes, even though they are almost 15% of the population.
Need I go on? It's the way things are,mate. The ethnic group that lives in a country where it's a minority must abide and respect that country's laws and symbols while practicing their own language and culture in their personal setting.
On a hypothetical note, if Macedonians comprised 25% of the population in Albania, do you think they would have been granted all of this? Be honest with me.

We need to work together as I have said .. we need to forget nationalistic tendencies and the past.. we need to look forward and move fast.. or we will be left behind in the region..

Exactly. And do you think making Albanian an official language, changing the constitution, flag and anthem are the solution?
No mate, corruption and poverty are the real problem of all citizens of Macedonia, and allowing the things above will not solve that.

The countries symbols need to reflect that 35% of the population aren't ethnic Macedonian..and that all sides can come together to agree on new symbols... thats when the symbols will be more respected by all!

Do Estonian symbols reflect the 32% of the rest of the population? Do Latvian symbols reflect the 38% of the rest of the population? Do Moldovan symbols reflect the 24% of the rest of the population? Do Russian symbols reflect the 20% of the rest of the population?...
Neither of the minority groups in these countries demand new symbols. Symbols of these countries are as they are, and EVERYONE living in them must respect them. Just like your people must respect Macedonian symbols and just like Macedonians in Albania respect Albanian symbols. If you can't do a simple thing like that you can't expect the majority of the country you live in to respect you and grant you wishes.

[Risto the Great]

Do any of those countries that Dragan listed above reject any attempt to perform a census? Let's not use the 35℅ too loosely Albo.

[Gocka]

No one seems to have caught on that Albo in response to my questions admitted that he doesn't view Albanians in Macedonia as a minority group like they are in any other country but at least partial owners of Macedonia.

Apparently when Albanians live in Switzerland they don't ask for the flags and symbols and languages to reflect them because they are immigrants to that country, but Macedonia is different.

This is why there will never be peace between Albanians and Macedonians as it relates to Macedonia. I hope this serves as a good example of why our differences can not be solved by just one more concession. There is no one concession that will make Albanians happy.

Open your eyes Macedonians, they think they have a right to the identity of the country. Albanians do not accept that Macedonia is a country founded by and made up of Macedonians, to them its a territory of which they are partial owners.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Macedonians need to understand that they can't go on governing without taking Albanian demands for equality seriously, and to undermine their importance in the successful development on Macedonia moving forward.

The nation state of Macedonia (RoMacedonia) should afford Albanians the same minority rights as the nation state of Albania (RoAlbania) affords Macedonians, nothing more, nothing less. That is the definition of fair. That is what equal means. Those are the pivotal first steps in the path of trying to secure peace and reconciliation within South Eastern Europe: Respect of the sovereignty of each other’s nation state, and affording minorities the same rights that you would expect for your own ethnic minorities who reside outside your nation states borders (irrespective of whatever alleged number those minorities consist of).

That is how the balancing act of equality can begin to be achieved between the nation states of South Eastern Europe (and what some argue membership of NATO and EU was supposedly supposed to help accomplish).

Any party seeking anything beyond that without reciprocating those same demands within their own nation state would not be considered as seeking “equality”, but rather be reasonably and justifiably seen as constituting a malicious attack on the sovereignty of the other nation state, representing an aggressive action of conquest with a prelude to war.

Right now, the Albanian minority currently holds a privileged status in RoMacedonia; their rights are beyond the definition of equal (as what was originally bestowed, not to mention majority standards) and are considered exceptional in comparison to those of the ordinary citizen. This is indisputable due to the fact that they resemble similar (and in some accounts go further than) rights that former European colonies now bestow upon dwindling indigenous populations of lands that they forcefully settled upon, in response to the brutal and enduring policies previously enacted against such populations, since these populations have no other nation state in which their culture and ethnicity can be preserved. Comparing this with Albanians, who (although like all South Eastern European nations can claim they have suffered the brutal policies of another) actually have their own nation state (in fact unofficially two nation states if we are to include Kosovo i Metohija) where their culture and ethnicity is already preserved, arguments that the extensive rights bestowed upon their privileged minority in RoMacedonia are yet to be “fair” or “equal” is a clear and purposeful distortion of the facts designed to deceive a would be observer of a false reality for ulterior and sinister purposes.

Let’s be straight and clear:

RoMacedonia is not Bosnia i Herzegovina

RoMacedonia is definitely not Kosovo i Metohija.

And most importantly, Macedonians are not Serbs (or Bulgarians).

So long as Albanians refuse to make this distinction, then their war mongering expansionist ideals will continue to steer our paths (and the wider area in general) to eventual conflict and unavoidable bloodshed. Unlike Albanians, Macedonians do not have any other nation state where their culture and ethnicity can be preserved, they’re minorities existence is outright denied and consequently afforded absolutely no rights in the new nation states that have come to occupy their indigenous lands. They have arguably suffered the heaviest losses of all South Eastern European people with over 60% of their indigenous lands now falling to foreign occupiers resulting with a large proportion of their populations being forced to scatter across the globe and live as diaspora communities due to the brutal policies enacted by these occupiers. The fraction of a state we (Macedonians) finally managed to secure for ourselves 60 years ago, despite the continued efforts of others who work towards the extinction of our ethnicity, is the only place left where our culture can be preserved, the only place left where our ethnic symbols and language can be promoted, and the only place we have which can be representative as the homeland for our entire ethnicity (particularly our kinsmen who still suffer ethnic oppression by the current occupiers of their indigenous lands and our diaspora communities). This was the purpose of the state at its creation, and since throughout history, at inception, as well as currently, we continue to make up the overwhelming majority of the state, it is our sovereign right to ensure the character of the state remains representative first of all of the Macedonian ethnic homeland to safeguard our race’s survival. This is no different to the sovereign right and standard practice of any other nation state in this world and furthermore, does not negate the states obligation to the required protection of any ethnic minority rights.

You claimed at introduction that your supposed purpose here was to convey the Albanian perspective. Well that is the Macedonian perspective, if it interests you at all that is, which when taking into account the totality of your posts, clearly does not. In fact, between your flip flopping on points, your ignorance towards opposing arguments based on factual evidence, and not to mention the continued contradiction in almost every second statement you make, your contributions offer nothing but conjecture along with insincerity, and serve as proof that Albanian’s alleged grievances regarding equal rights in RoMacedonia are not at all genuine but are in fact, as Risto pointed out, hollow distortions utilised to conceal the true character of the Albanian nationalist movement in RoMacedonia which is not one for equality, but one of conquest (which today some would even argue is a by-product of your Islamic faith), and whilst you continuously proclaim the need to progress the area, your exposed ethnically (and religiously) driven territorial expansionist ideology ensures that the opposite prevails in South Eastern Europe as your actions only serve to reinforce prevailing negative perceptions and hesitations amongst South Eastern European states of their ethnic minorities, supporting the view that minority rights in general should continue to be ignored and trampled on, for to do the opposite, would only jeopardise the security of the state and its people since the motives behind such movements are indeed based on conquest as opposed to peace, respect, reconciliation and equality, as is evident with the Albanian example in RoMacedonia.

[Tomche Makedonche]

No one seems to have caught on that Albo in response to my questions admitted that he doesn't view Albanians in Macedonia as a minority group like they are in any other country but at least partial owners of Macedonia.

Apparently when Albanians live in Switzerland they don't ask for the flags and symbols and languages to reflect them because they are immigrants to that country, but Macedonia is different.

This is why there will never be peace between Albanians and Macedonians as it relates to Macedonia. I hope this serves as a good example of why our differences can not be solved by just one more concession. There is no one concession that will make Albanians happy.

Open your eyes Macedonians, they think they have a right to the identity of the country. Albanians do not accept that Macedonia is a country founded by and made up of Macedonians, to them its a territory of which they are partial owners.

I don't think anyone has missed anything, our understanding of the Albanian agenda in RoMacedonia has simply been reinforced.

I mean seriously, in Australia people pay money for a chance to win a wage for doing nothing for the rest of their lives, its called the Lotto, yet this guy has the balls to try and convince people that such a scenario when it comes to Albanians is a curse?, tell you what, transfer that cash over this way, I'll be happy to relinquish Albanians of their unjustly curse and bear such a heavy burden on their behalf...

[Dejan]

This bloke has to be a paid shill