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Old 10-26-2011, 07:06 AM   #101
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Who said it was easy and quickly done??? It took centuries of propaganda.

It started with the translation of ancient Greek texts from Arabic to European languages. Then continued with Montesquieu creating the term "Byzantine" for eastern Romans and reinterpreting eastern Roman history. Developed with the eventual change of European doctrine from religious dogmas to modernism. They called it as "returning to the roots" after centuries of darkness due to christian dogmas of catholic church. Then it finalized with the French revolution in 1789 and the start of nationalism and realized by the likes of Lord Byron`s romanticism and the appointed rule of Bavarian kings. You know the rest.
And all the while there were a people living in the same location and speaking the same language of their ancestors. Too bad they couldnt do the same thing in Egypt. As if nobody ever admired the ancient Egyptians.

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Btw, if you say that it`s not possible to create ethnos without facebook and internet then you don't agree with your Greek official claim of Tito`s creation of Macedonian ethnos (the one you guys call as Skopians)???? Am i wrong??? Then you accept that the Macedonians of ROM are really the heir of ancient Macedonians because it`s not possible to create ethnos in Tito`s time???

Curiously waiting your response...
Not exactly, the problem with Macedonia is purely political in nature. If anybody can remember how it was during the days of Yugoslavia or even further back you would see that it was a non-issue. This is not a bilateral dispute since this does not only concern Greece, but Bulgaria (does not recognize ethnicity or language), Serbia (does not recognize the church) and of course Greece (does not recognize the name). Regarding the identity part, as far as Greece is concerned it shouldnt even be on the table.
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Old 10-26-2011, 08:12 AM   #102
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And all the while there were a people living in the same location and speaking the same language of their ancestors. Too bad they couldnt do the same thing in Egypt. As if nobody ever admired the ancient Egyptians.
Go back and read Epirot`s msgs in this thread. It couldn't be done to the Egypt because ancient Egypt suffered the same fate of ancient Greece. All the Egyptian priests of ancient religion has been killed by christian Romans. All their texts has been burned, some temples has been destroyed and drawings, hieroglyphs has been damaged, erased on others.

The difference was, Arabs/Iranians was able to keep ancient Greek texts while everything was lost about ancient Egypt. The muslim Iranian scholars tried so hard to decipher egyptian hieroglyphs in 9th century but they failed. Ancient Egypt rediscovered in 19th century by using Rosetta stone. It was too late anymore. If Arabs/Iranians would be able to preserve Egyptian texts, like they did to Greek ones, maybe the romantiques of enlightenment era would try to resurrect ancient Egypt too, just like they did for modern Greece, who knows!!!


For further addo to my previous post;
It was even the British philhellenes who created and then instructed modern Greek language to you. They created the language institutes and schools to teach modern Greek to the mob in Morea. They even dreamed of teaching ancient Greek to you and even tried that for a while but then they decided that it was an impossible task and it would be enough to eliminate turkism from Romaika and teach it to you. As a result of that, in about two generations, your philhellene creation of neo-athenian tongue became quite different from the Greeks of Istanbul, you know that, right?

Last edited by Onur; 10-26-2011 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 10-26-2011, 08:14 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Epirot
They are portraying Albanians as being responsible for everything bad occurred during the last war there. It's more than obvious that the Serbs are just trying to wash their hands with water and saying: 'We are innocent'.
I don't consider either side innocent, I just don't want there to be any misconceptions with regard to the damaged Christian places of worship.
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I strongly condemn their vandalism.
Good to hear, as you should.
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The monastery of Dešan was previously Catholic. It has been built by the Catholic Albanians of Tivar.
What proof do you have that it was established by Albanians? Is there a record of when this happened?
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In the Dešan municipality itself, Albanians constituted always the majority of population.
The Dečani charters from the time of Stephen Uroš III show Albanians to be a tiny minority. Which records from that period refer to Albanians as a majority?
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They have absolutly no reason to hide it. That is completely false.
There are plenty of reasons to hide it. Your suggestion in itself is false, naive, and to be honest, quite stupid.
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:19 AM   #104
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For further addo to my previous post;
It was even the British philhellenes who created and then instructed modern Greek language to you. They created the language institutes and schools to teach modern Greek to the mob in Morea. They even dreamed of teaching ancient Greek to you and even tried that for a while but then they decided that it was an impossible task and it would be enough to eliminate turkism from Romaika and teach it to you. As a result of that, in about two generations, your philhellene creation of neo-athenian tongue became quite different from the Greeks of Istanbul, you know that, right?
You have got to be kidding. You should write tabloids for a living.
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Old 10-26-2011, 03:25 PM   #105
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Not exactly, the problem with Macedonia is purely political in nature. If anybody can remember how it was during the days of Yugoslavia or even further back you would see that it was a non-issue. This is not a bilateral dispute since this does not only concern Greece, but Bulgaria (does not recognize ethnicity or language), Serbia (does not recognize the church) and of course Greece (does not recognize the name). Regarding the identity part, as far as Greece is concerned it shouldnt even be on the table.
Let me put my walking stick down for a moment and adjust my hearing aid a little softer. But I do recall a time in the 1980's when Greeks would say Macedonia does not exist. Is this the non-issue you refer to?
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Old 10-26-2011, 04:07 PM   #106
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Let me put my walking stick down for a moment and adjust my hearing aid a little softer. But I do recall a time in the 1980's when Greeks would say Macedonia does not exist. Is this the non-issue you refer to?
Im in my mid thirties Risto, I was a kid back then. But from what I know it wasnt as it is now.
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Old 10-26-2011, 05:51 PM   #107
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Im in my mid thirties Risto, I was a kid back then. But from what I know it wasnt as it is now.
Could you clarify what you mean? what wasn't as it is now?

Thanks
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Old 10-26-2011, 06:37 PM   #108
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VOLTRON; I pretty much agree with everything you said, except for the well known position of the "West" creating the Greek ethnos. It really is ridiculous to think that it would be that easy for a couple of Germans, Brits or what have you to create a new ethnos.
No one said anything about easy. Though i did say the west had a clean slate to work with considering (initially)ethnos was of no importance to the locals. It would not have taken a couple of Germans, Brits, to acheive this. Well not ordinary Germans or Brits that you make sound so simple and unlikely. But it was Monarchies (where the three "protecting powers Britain, France and Russia) stipulated in the London Protocol of May 7, 1832, that Greece should be an "independent monarchy under the guarantee of the Powers". Then indeed, the first, a German king was installed by the Great Powers, followed by a royal family with kinship ties to the British and Danish throne, intermarrying, eventually, with both the Russian and the German royal lines. We also have British capitalists , governments of Britain, France and even Tsarist Russia, that are credited, who intervened and put an end to the fighting. They compelled Turkey to accept that the Southern part of Greece should become an independent country.


Why would the west create a Greek ethnos? Well apart from the German King Ludwig 1 philhellenism, (who would have been crushed after his son Otto discovered Albanian was the language spoken on the streets of Athens) You can not have a nation called "Greece" without any Greeks. I'm sure this makes sence to you.

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Old 10-26-2011, 07:03 PM   #109
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Sputnik,

Without inadvertently suggesting the Greeks may be something that they are not, I would like to make a few comments.

Firstly, you're modernist (which grew out of socialist anti-nationalism) views on ethnonationalism (what you refer to as nationalism) have been largely discredited within wider scholarship. Scholars generally consider ethnonationalism to be a much older phenomenon and some key thinkers in the area consider it to be as old as humanity itself.

Secondly, you should consider how your theories on ethnonationalism impact on Macedonian identity.
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Old 10-26-2011, 07:23 PM   #110
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Im in my mid thirties Risto, I was a kid back then. But from what I know it wasnt as it is now.
You've left yourself plenty of room to play around with the above statement. I have told you what it definitely was. If this Greek viewpoint has changed since then, it has definitely been a relatively recent event and probably coincided with the renaming of your Micra airport in Solun circa 1993. Now everything Macedonian is Greek apparently.

But please feel free to clarify what you mean by "from what I know it wasnt as it is now".
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