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Old 01-10-2017, 11:10 AM   #41
Gocka
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The rhetoric and victim mentality of Albanians reminds me very much of some of the excuses you hear coming out of American ghettos inhabited predominately by black people.

For example just recently with the war torn country like violence happening in Chicago, you see a lot of attention given to the communities that live their and because of the Black Lives Matter (BLM) movement you see a lot of attention given to the black community as a whole. When I hear these black community leaders or protesters come out and give speeches, I could swear I am hear Albanians voice their "grievances". The general line coming out of these BLM protests is that black people are still treated unequally in the USA, especially as it relates to policing. They claim black people are arrested more frequently, killed more frequently, and treated in general with discrimination and contempt by the authorities.

Similar to how in Macedonia any time an Albanian is arrested or god forbid killed, immediately he was an angel just minding his business before the big bad racists came and got him. In the USA in almost every case where the black community was up in arms at a police shooting, the suspect had committed a crime, and in most cases been armed. Just as in Macedonia if anything ever happens to an Albanian, by default it must have been unjust, even if there is evidence that the perpetrator had done something, it is ignored or dismissed. As long as the opposite party is of the opposite race or in Macedonia's case ethnicity, the actions must have been unjust by default.

In the USA the black side screams racism just as Albanians scream racism, even though they themselves are the biggest racists. Just as statistics out of the USA show white people statistically are more likely to be killed by police (factoring in that they are a larger % of the populous), BLM and the like still push the narrative that the opposite is true, just like Albo keeps pushing the narrative that Albanians in Macedonia are somehow more disadvantaged than their Macedonian counterparts even though all the facts point to it at least being equal if not worse for Macedonians in the east.

In the USA coming out of Chicago, the excuse is that the violence comes from a lack of opportunity for upward mobility, and that their is a lack of investment in those areas, sound familiar? Apparently not enough money is thrown at the ghettos in Chicago, that is why they are killing each other. Forget the fact that most of them are on public housing, food stamps, welfare, etc. They always want more, sound familiar? Its always the white man holding them down. In ROM its always the Macedonians keeping Albanians down. As if in the USA there aren't millions of poor white people, in the rust belt, in the Midwest, in the south. Farmers who work all day in the sun for peanuts, while some thug draws welfare to sit on his ass and commit crimes. Not unlike how Albanians are drawing public paychecks to sit on their ass and scream racism, while farmers in Gevgelija work in the sun all day to hardly be able to afford food.

Even after decades of inclusion, quotas, support, money, and a swath of programs aimed at these very ghettos, the inhabitants still want more and claim that nothing is being done out of racism. Which one am I talking about, Macedonia or the USA? Just as in Macedonia that supposed victimization leads them to act out violently. In Macedonia the drug trade is exclusively run by the Albanians, just as in the USA where the majority of felons are black. Yet that fact is always dismissed. They are only doing it because they dont have a choice or because the big bad oppressor made them.

The reason both communities, Albanians and African Americans act out in similar fashions is because they have both been brainwashed by their OWN community leaders that they are constant victims. That they are always being discriminated against, they are always the victim of something. Notice how neither community is going anywhere fast, and no matter how hard you try to appease you are still the bad guy. Its because as long as the other side always believes that their ethnicity or race is the number 1 factor in everything that ever happens, you can never make genuine progress.

If Albanians were the way that Albo claims they are, and they just want a fair shake, and they want a fair ethnic blind administration. Then they wouldn't throw their ethnicity front and center on every possible thing in every possible way. For people who want the country they live in to treat everyone equally, they always want special treatment. They wouldn't constantly divide themselves from the country that they supposedly want to be a part of.

See I think Macedonians also have it wrong, and Albo is right on one important fact. There is no central agenda for a Greater Albania. The reason a Greater Albania seems like its always on the agenda is because Albanians, everywhere they live, always assume they are being victimized by someone. Because they always lead with that mentality, no amount of goodwill or concession will ever change their mind. So by default they come to the conclusion that only when they govern themselves 100% only then will there be prosperity and fairness. Its not that they lead with the idea that the want a Greater Albania for the sake of it. Its more that they couldn't possibly ever be treated fairly by anyone, thus it is the only solution to all their problems. That is why Albanians are so surprised when they are accused that they are plotting a Greater Albania. They themselves are not aware that because of their own racism and unwillingness to live side by side with anyone else, that they are pushing for a Greater Albania. They lie to themselves that if only all our oppressors accepted our meager terms, things would be great. Meanwhile the rest of us look at them like they are crazy, similar to how black being drawing welfare think they need reparations. A normal honest person knows its ridiculous that someone wants financial compensation for acts that occurred hundreds of years ago by a small group of people that just happen to have a similar skin color to someone like me today. When you always assume you are owed something, you dont see your own ridiculousness.

Albanians will never change as long as they act like victims. The worst part, is that just like in the USA, its not white people feeding them this brainwashing, its the so called "enlightened" figures in their own communities that are doing this to them, and holding them back generation after generation. Ahmeti is Al Sharpton. Constantly playing the race and ethnic. cards in order to stay relevant and line their own pockets.

I hope Macedonians realize that they will never get through to Albanians. By default Macedonians will always be the oppressor. They will not be satisfied unless they are your master.

To end, the funniest part of it all, is that Albanians actually got what they wanted in one case, KOSOVO. How is that working out for them? Its like the wild west, where the gun and the mafia rule. Some Kosovars are moving to Macedonia for a better life, can we all just stop for a minute and laugh out loud about that. That right there tells you everything you need to know. Just as American ghettos end up with black mayors, police chiefs, and community administrators, and crime gets worse, people get poorer, etc. Its not as simple as just putting someone that looks like you in charge, you actually have to have a plan to better people lives.

Albanians have no plan to better their lives, other than to make sure they are in charge of themselves period.


Because of the world we live in, I feel like I have to quantify what I said. This is in no way a criticism of all black people in the USA, not even of all Albanians in Macedonia. There are millions of hard working successful black people, as there are thousands of hardworking honest Albanians. This is aimed at the elements in both camps that act the way described above. Its hard to quantify what % of either group acts this way, but regardless even if they are a small minority, that small minority causes a lot of problems, and it is up to the rest of the respective ethnic and racial groups to stand up against the self destructive trends in their own communities.

Last edited by Gocka; 01-10-2017 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 01-10-2017, 11:36 AM   #42
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I would also like to address the claims that Albanians want financial and opportunistic equality. If that is the case then please tell me how the following will either put Albanians to work, or fix their bridges and roads.

Recognize a supposed genocide, from a 100 years ago, where the accused perpetrators were not even Macedonian. What a job creator.

Making Albanian an official language. What will this do to create jobs?

Demanding revision of the flag and coat of arms. First of all, find me a country where a minority of 25% even 30% demands that the flag be changed in order to better reflect their foreign self consciousness. Not only does this not do a damn thing for Albanians other then stroke their ego but its delusional thinking at its purest. Then you wonder why Macedonians don't act in good faith towards you.

Most of the official demands are purely symbolic ethnic jousting and not even remotely related to improving the daily lives of Albanians.

Albanians have no one to blame but themselves for the contempt other have for them and for their lack of advancement. These demands are being put forth by your own politicians because they know they will get a positive reaction from your community. If you want economic mobility why aren't Albanians up in arms that none of those demands are designed to give you that which you supposedly want.
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Old 01-10-2017, 01:52 PM   #43
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If you want economic mobility why aren't Albanians up in arms that none of those demands are designed to give you that which you supposedly want.
Excellent point.
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Old 01-10-2017, 01:54 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
Will ethnic Albanians only be happy once they have the upper hand like in Ottoman times? Perhaps it has formed part of their psyche with the loss of rights over the majority making them bitter.
This is a big factor in the mentality of the Albanians as a whole.
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Old 01-10-2017, 01:57 PM   #45
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Default Ahmeti's Village. The Political Economy Of Interethnic Relations In Macedonia

Yes this is a bit old but not much has changed and is relevant for many other municipalities where Albanians live, it's for all those who truly want to see an issue from both sides with a balanced view which offers facts and figures on how non equal Albanian regions have been treated by the State.

Please take the time to read it and and try to see an Albanian perspective.

Ahmeti's Village. The Political Economy Of Interethnic Relations In Macedonia

http://www.esiweb.org/index.php?lang...document_ID=36


=====================

Macedonian version available here:


http://www.esiweb.org/index.php?lang...document_ID=42
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Old 01-10-2017, 02:51 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
For example just recently with the war torn country like violence happening in Chicago, you see a lot of attention given to the communities that live their and because of the Black Lives Matter (BLM) movement you see a lot of attention given to the black community as a whole. When I hear these black community leaders or protesters come out and give speeches, I could swear I am hear Albanians voice their "grievances". The general line coming out of these BLM protests is that black people are still treated unequally in the USA, especially as it relates to policing. They claim black people are arrested more frequently, killed more frequently, and treated in general with discrimination and contempt by the authorities.
That's exactly what a close friend of mine that moved to Chicago almost 10 years ago said when he was visiting this summer.
One of our friends for some reason mentioned the "wave" of police brutality against blacks that was in the center of the media back then.
And he just said "I was on the same page with you before I moved but now seeing what's happening with my own eyes, I can see blacks are just victimizing themselves playing the racism card.Things are not what American media present them to be at all.In Chicago it's not safe to walk through the black suburbs, people get robbed,raped and assaulted by street gangs all the time, and when the cops come to make an arrest it's white oppression on the black people. "
The media give special attention and coverage to incidents involving black people which, given the vast territory and number of criminal offenses per day in a country with 300+ million people, aren't really as frequent as presented.
It's like all western media show an article about how an Israeli soldier gives water and food to a starving Palestinian child ,but no one reports of several attacks of the Israeli army on Palestinian camps killing god-knows-how-many Palestinian civilians that very same day.
Same thing.
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Old 01-10-2017, 08:53 PM   #47
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Calls and support for a Greater Albainia will
Only gain ground if Macedonia isn't inclusive,accepting and understanding of Albanian needs. If they keep delaying reforms and EU/NATO integration (without sorting the name issue) or continue anti-western rhetoric while flirting with Russia.. then Albanians will come out and say we want to move forward with the rest of the region and not be excluded and held back due to Macedonian issues..
This would be regarded as a treasonous act. Not sure where your getting your ideas from but from what I can see "Albanisation of Macedonia thread" pictures and articles, these sort of things need to be stamped out.

Which country allows another country's flag to dominate the landscape?

Which politicians consult with another country's governemnt?

I have no problem where people call themselves Albanian and are taught the language WITHIN the Macedonian curriculaum.

However, thinking like you do will ensure that Macedonian and Albanian relations will remain in the dark ages.
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:27 AM   #48
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"The Leshok monastery case was always said to be an inside job..." Yep, and the two Albanians that perished at a Tetovo Security check point, live on TV, in a hail storm of Macedonian machine gun fire were, in fact, slain in vain. Despite the clear video footage of one hurling a grenade at a Macedonian policeman, Albanian media outlets insisted that the two men were innocent civilians murdered by Macedonian security forces, and that the grenade had in fact been a mobile phone.

There's a great book by Canadian war correspondent and former soldier, Scott Taylor, called "Diary of an unCivil War" that is a must read for anyone interested in the dirty politics behind the Kosovo conflict and the 2001 Albanian insurgency in Macedonia. In it, Taylor, documents some of the cunning Albanian trickery in their dirty bag of tricks that were designed to appeal to the Western media and gain sympathy as the poor innocent victims at the hands of the hateful and horrible Macedonians. Be warned though, if you have high blood pressure, because it will rise off the charts when you read through the first-hand accounts of US complicity (with Albanians) and duplicity (with Macedonians) during the course of the conflict. I have singled out some excerpts from the book that, if you're anything like me, are sure to give you a headache at the injustice of it all.

Quote 1 (Page 126):
At a cafe in the center of Neopristina (most likely referring to Neproshteno), we encountered an OSCE international monitoring team investigating the bombardment. Team leader Carl Underwood, an American Vietnam veteran, came over to introduce himself. According to Underwood, the Macedonians had been firing at Neopristina in retaliation for UCK attacks on a dam up a nearby creek that provides Ratae's (i.e. Rataje) water supply. When first asked about this, Albanian villagers had denied the allegation. They denied it again, even when standing by the dry creek bed. "It's annoying as hell when they just keep making up new lies," said Underwood as headed back into the café to rejoin the investigation.

Quote 2 (Page 127):
After I was introduced to Commanders Mouse and Jimmy, we all went back to the café so we could talk and be heard above the clamour of the kids. After exchanging pleasantries - as well as a round of one-upmanship in the sharing of Balkan war-zone experiences - we had a very straightforward discussion.
As I was an ex-military type, they talked openly about their forces. The previous night, Herr Peel had told me that American helicopters had been supplying arms to the nearby village of Sipkovica. Despite the use of covering smoke screen. Macedonian security forces spotted two Chinook transport helicopters.
When the Macedonian media published photos of this not-so-covert aid to the Albanians, the Americans replied that the delivery was "vital humanitarian aid." I asked Mouse and Jimmy about the American claim and they both laughed out loud. "What do you think?" asked Mouse. "This is summer in the Balkans, and every village has plenty of foof stocks."
Still laughing, he asked, "Did the Americans really say it was humanitarian aid?" Commander Jimmy was more direct. We don't have heavy artillery and the Macedonians do. Is it wrong for the Americans to even the playing field?" I smiled and agreed. Denny shouted, "God Bless America!"


Quote 3 (Page 133):
Things were really heating up.As we reached the banks of the Vardar, an American Twin Huey utlity helicopter roared over us at treetop level. A grinning door-gunner gave us a thumbs-up and the kids (Albanians) cheered wildly. Startled at the appearance of a NATO aircraft so blatantly violating Macedonian air space, I asked out loud, "What the hell are the Yanks doing here?". One of the older boys looked at me sternly and said, "They're here to help us - or don't you think they should?"

Quote 4 (Page137):
During my phone call (to Bruce Garvey at the Canadian newspaper, The Citizen), several Albanians had crowded around, trying to follow my story. When I finished, one of the older men asked, "Why didn't you tell them about how our women and children are suffering?" When I replied that I hadn't seen any women or children, I immediately realised that I had taken his bait. A few men escorted me to the basements of some of Bojane's larger houses. In each crowded cellar, there were approximately two dozen women and children
sitting on mats around the floor, rocking back and forth and pretending to cry - from fear of the Macedonian police, I was told. I say "pretending" because the whole scene was so badly acted, it was embarrassing to be a part of. I knew that I was expected to express my shock and sympathy, but seeing the young girls laughing behind their hands at each other's phoney tears made it impossible for me to feign compassion. When my guide asked if I would like to photograph this "suffering," I lied and said that I was out of film.
"They have been down in the shelter since the fighting in June," he told me. When I asked if all they did was sit and cry all day, every day, he replied with a straight face, "Yes."
As we were leaving, I glanced back and saw young children spilling out eagerly into the back garden, and teenage girls watching our passage from an upstairs window.
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Old 01-11-2017, 07:21 PM   #49
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I would be pretty upset if I was forced in a room and ordered to pretend to cry all day.
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Old 01-11-2017, 08:27 PM   #50
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Yes this is a bit old but not much has changed and is relevant for many other municipalities where Albanians live, it's for all those who truly want to see an issue from both sides with a balanced view which offers facts and figures on how non equal Albanian regions have been treated by the State. Please take the time to read it and and try to see an Albanian perspective.
If you think all the regions and villages populated by Macedonians have it much better then you're even more delusional than your diatribes in the other thread seem to suggest. And why is the bar set so high for Macedonia as opposed to every other poor Balkan country with rampant nepotism and corruption? Your people practically run that quasi-state up north, is the utopia project working there? You can't even get your act together in Kosovo where you're a majority and you want to dictate terms to Macedonia where you're a minority? Give me a break. Here's an idea, try being constructive towards the country you live in rather than destabilising it whenever things don't go your way. Here's another one, try working towards obtaining an education or experience, or developing reputable and respectable characteristics, then go for the job that you want, rather than expecting it just because you supposedly belong to a 25% minority. I would rather a decent, hardworking and sensible individual as a police officer in Macedonia, for example, over a lazy, self-entitled or disrespectful moron, even if the former was from a minority group and the latter was a Macedonian. I am all for equality as citizens, meaning everybody is equal before the laws of the state. I also support minority rights, so long as they don't negatively impact on the integrity and sovereignty of the state. However, when it comes to core matters relating to the national and cultural identity of the state, then that is a matter for Macedonians and should be based on Macedonian history. That's the way it is in most countries and that's the way it should be in Macedonia.

The strength of that element within the ethnic Albanian minority in Macedonia which causes problems is not organic, instead it rests solely on the inability of Macedonians to unite. Whatever the population numbers may be, Macedonians are still an absolute majority in the Macedonian republic and if they were to put aside their petty differences they would not be so susceptible to these issues. Macedonians need to take heed of the statement made by one of Macedonia's most famous sons; the world is a field for the cultural competition among nations. At the moment, we're being competitive with each other rather than towards those who have an agenda against Macedonia. That is why we're losing. But despite the many setbacks, it is not all lost. Macedonians can still make a positive difference and change their fate if they retain any of the spirit that was so prominent in their forefathers. And minorities loyal to the state should be engaged in the process and support this endeavour.
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