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Old 04-27-2017, 10:59 PM   #21
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I think what he did was absolutely undemocratic. He didn't give voters a chance to take into account the Tirana platform when they voted, but its not illegal either. You can't go and beat him up for it.
So you're suggesting it was deceptive and opportunistic, but not illegal. Do you think he has the legal right to form a government?
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What do you think of the recent violence at the parliament, was it justified, should be condone ti?
I think it would've been better for the protesters to storm the parliament and prevent those traitors and fifth column collaborators from continuing on with their business. If the response from the latter two leads to a physical confrontation, then so be it. The protesters should stand their ground. I don't condone unprovoked attacks and the scenes of violence were distasteful - that said, I understand the frustration. Let's keep things in perspective here, these politicians are literally destroying whatever sovereignty is left of Macedonia so simply picketing in front of the parliament building will not do. However, to echo a similar sentiment to that of Phoenix, I think Macedonians should've stormed the parliament in the early 90's before the integrity of the country was irreparably damaged. Strong action back then could have prevented the never-ending domino effect of treachery.
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:04 PM   #22
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So you're suggesting it was deceptive and opportunistic, but not illegal. Do you think he has the legal right to form a government?

I think it would've been better for the protesters to storm the parliament and prevent those traitors and fifth column collaborators from continuing on with their business. If the response from the latter two leads to a physical confrontation, then so be it. The protesters should stand their ground. I don't condone unprovoked attacks and the scenes of violence were distasteful - that said, I understand the frustration. Let's keep things in perspective here, these politicians are literally destroying whatever sovereignty is left of Macedonia so simply picketing in front of the parliament building will not do. However, to echo a similar sentiment to that of Phoenix, I think Macedonians should've stormed the parliament in the early 90's before the integrity of the country was irreparably damaged. Strong action back then could have prevented the never-ending domino effect of treachery.
Well said SOM!!!
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:10 PM   #23
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There are many things I don't understand in the rules and practices comparing to the Greek ones. Many other foreigners from around the world will be probably making the same questions to you today.

I don't understand what exactly in the Parliament procedures was illegal or irregular. Why is this called a coup? How can one stop a parliament from operating and forming a Government? We also have mandates in Greece, but we don’t have a problem with the President refusing to give them. What happens then?

Also, what is it that Ivanov and Gruevski practically propose? New elections, I guess. Still, if the new elections had (theoretically) the exact same result, would Ivanov give a mandate to Zaev?
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:14 PM   #24
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There are many things I don't understand in the rules and practices comparing to the Greek ones. Many other foreigners from around the world will be probably making the same questions to you today.

I don't understand what exactly in the Parliament procedures was illegal or irregular. Why is this called a coup? How can one stop a parliament from operating and forming a Government? We also have mandates in Greece, but we don’t have a problem with the President refusing to give them. What happens then?

Also, what is it that Ivanov and Gruevski practically propose? New elections, I guess. Still, if the new elections had (theoretically) the exact same result, would Ivanov give a mandate to Zaev?
For somebody who trolls this forum and lingers around like a foul fart, you really don't understand much...
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:21 PM   #25
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For somebody who trolls this forum and lingers around like a foul fart, you really don't understand much...
I understand your political objections, but what about the generic rules of democracy?
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:53 PM   #26
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I understand your political objections, but what about the generic rules of democracy?
...let me know where I can find the section pertaining to 'Coups' in the handbook of 'The Generic Rules of Democracy'...?
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:54 PM   #27
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This was a riot because the former DPmNE appointed Defense Minister has now become the Speaker?

And they run in and wave the Ventilator around in a mad frenzy of confused ideology?

Does stupidity define Macedonians or what? Move along folks. Nothing to see here, unless you liked the film Groundhog day.
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Old 04-27-2017, 11:58 PM   #28
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http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2...nia-parliament

Violence erupts as protesters storm Macedonia parliament

Macedonia's opposition leader was among at least 10 people injured in parliament Thursday after protesters stormed the building following an allegedly unfair vote for a parliamentary speaker, witnesses and local media reported.

An AFP reporter saw Zoran Zaev, who leads the main opposition Social Democrats, with blood on his face in the chaos, while Macedonian media quoting hospital sources said ten people were injured, including two deputies.

The violence erupted after around 100 protesters supporting the rival VMRO-DPMNE party entered parliament waving Macedonian flags and singing the national anthem.

AFP photos and footage on local TV showed at least one masked man inside the building.

"I condemn the attacks on MPs in Skopje in the strongest terms. Violence has NO place in Parliament. Democracy must run its course," said European Union Commissioner Johannes Hahn on Twitter.

The incident follows months of political deadlock in the Balkan country, where demonstrators have been holding nightly rallies in the capital since an inconclusive December election.

They oppose a proposed coalition between Zaev's Social Democrats (SDSM) and ethnic Albanians, which they perceive as a threat to national unity.

According to local media, Thursday's incident broke out after the SDSM and Albanian parties voted in a new parliamentary speaker although the former speaker had closed the day's session.

Their chosen speaker, Talat Xhaferi, is ethnic Albanian.

For a decade until last year, Macedonia was ruled by the conservative VMRO-DPMNE and its leader Nikola Gruevski.

December's election saw the party secure 51 seats in the 120-seat parliament -- or two more than the SDSM, but the conservatives failed to reach a deal with kingmaking Albanian parties.

Although Zaev then reached an agreement with the Albanian groups, President Gjorge Ivanov refused to give him a mandate to form a government.

An ally of Gruevski, the president expressed concern over the controversial demand of Albanian parties that Albanian be made an official language across Macedonia.

Critics of the demand fear it could lead to the break-up of the small country of around two million people, about a quarter of whom are ethnic Albanians.

The EU and the United States have urged Ivanov to reverse his decision, while Macedonia's opposition has warned its conservative rivals that they are playing with fire by using the ethnic card in a bid to stay in power.

The vote was supposed to end two years of political upheaval in Macedonia, sparked by a huge wiretapping scandal, but it has only served to deepen the crisis.

The former Yugoslav republic aspires to join both NATO and the EU.

Gruevski called for people to "calm down" after Thursday's trouble.

"People should not respond to provocations of the SDSM and those who want to push the state into even deeper crisis," he said on Facebook.
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Old 04-28-2017, 12:02 AM   #29
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http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/arti...nce-04-27-2017

Macedonia Shaken by Violence in Parliament

Police used flash grenades to drive protesters out of parliament and evacuate MPs trapped inside after lawmakers including opposition leader Zoran Zaev were assaulted inside the legislature.

Police moved in to restore order late Thursday after protesters supporting the former ruling VMRO DPMNE party stormed parliament, injuring at least four MPs.

The protesters forced their way in to the legislature after the former opposition led by the Social Democrats, SDSM, elected a parliamentary speaker in a bid to form a government.

Medical authorities reported that at least nine people were injured.

At least four MPs, all from the new parliamentary majority, including the SDSM leader Zoran Zaev and the head of the DPA- Movement for reforms, Zijadin Sela, were confirmed to have been injured and received medical treatment.

There was a heavy police presence into the night in Skopje's central area as several hundred protesters stayed in front of the parliament building, although the situation remained calm.

The violence began just after 6pm local time when a majority of 67 MPs in the 120-seat parliament elected the new parliament speaker, Talat Xhaferi – the next step towards the establishment of the new opposition-led coalition government.

"Dear citizens, my country, I congratulate you on the election of the new parliament speaker and God speed to all of us," SDSM leader Zoran Zaev told a press conference inside parliament, immediately before the former ruling VMRO DPMNE activists stormed the building.

The VMRO DPMNE party, which has been trying to avoid losing power by preventing the election of a new speaker for the past month, complained that the move was unlawful and called it an "attempted coup".

All through the evening, increasing numbers of protesters started entering parliament - facing little opposition from the police stationed there.

For a couple of hours, the protesters, some with black hoods over their heads, occupied the press hall, and the new majority MPs stranded inside were attacked.

Protesters also entered parliament’s plenary hall, where they sang patriotic songs and chanted for fresh elections, a demand in line with the stance of the VMRO DPMNE party.

As increasing numbers of riot police units started to enter the parliament building, all remaining media crews were ushered out and the power was shut off.

The police then used concussion grenades to drive the pro-VMRO DPMNE protesters out of the building and evacuate the MPs and remaining journalists who were trapped inside. Some reporters have said that meanwhile they were attacked by groups of protesters.

In a short televised address, the VMRO DPMNE-backed Macedonian President Gjorge Ivanov called for calm.

"I call upon the leaders of the parliamentary parties to come to my office tomorrow for a leaders’ meeting so that we can overcome this condition," Ivanov said.

He also called on all sides to refrain from violence, saying that the parliamentary rulebook and the legislative order had been breached today with the election of a new parliament speaker by the new majority.

But the SDSM blamed Ivanov, who since March 1 has refused to award the mandate to form a government to opposition leader Zoran Zaev, despite the fact that he has assembled a working majority.

The SDSM said Ivanov was "part of the scenario" responsible for the violence and for blocking a peaceful transition of power after the December 11 early elections.

The leader of the VMRO DPMNE, Nikola Gruevski, who was reportedly outside of the country, in Vienna, used Facebook to call for calm.

Gruevski insisted that his party will use "all democratic means" to block the election of the new parliament speaker and stop a new government taking office.

The US embassy in Skopje and the EU's Federica Mogherini and Johannes Hahn condemned the violence.

But they also said that the election of a new parliament speaker was a positive step forward.

"A majority of MPs elected Talat Xhaferi as Speaker of Parliament during a regular, continued session of parliament witnessed by members of the public and press. We will work with him to support democracy and to advance the interests of Macedonia," the US Embassy said in a press release.

Macedonia has not been able to elect a new government since December’s polls.

The crisis deepened on March 1, when President Ivanov refused to grant SDSM leader Zaev the mandate to form a government, insisting that it would jeopardize the country's sovereignty.

The SDSM said the VMRO DPMNE was afraid to lose power because its leaders fear standing trial.

Several senior party figures, including VMRO DPMNE leader Nikola Gruevski, are currently facing criminal investigations and indictments by the Special Prosecution, SJO, which they claim are politically motivated.
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Old 04-28-2017, 02:15 AM   #30
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I don't really care for any retribution against the shiptari, they've rarely shown themselves to be anything other than nationalists fighting for their own cause...I seriously don't expect to ever see them rise above that. Therefor it's futile to be punching the shit out of them in the Macedonian parliament.

On the other hand, Zaev and Co have gotten away far too lightly...and the protesters missed a golden opportunity to dish out some patriotic justice to members of Gruevski's team as well.

Ethnic Macedonian politicians should have been leaving parliament in body bags and their 'personal' security detail should have been overpowered and executed by the mob.

You simply can't have it both ways in Macedonia...you can't expect civil obedience from the masses, whilst politicians undertake coups and are oblivious to the law of the land and are prepared to sell Macedonia to the highest bidder.

Macedonia needs it's own version of a Ceaușescu moment...then we can cleanse and move forward.
Totally agreed, the likes of ZZ got off lightly, if this was 100 years ago they would have got executed.

It was great when ZZ and scare crow shekerinska were throwing paint balls in Skopje when they were trying to create an artificial revolution, I remember how happy they looked. Now they don't look so happy..

As for the status quo The truth is:

- ZZ got this far with the support of left forces both logistically and financially
- ZZ got this far with a smear campaign eg wiretapping
- ZZ got this far and to this point by promising to turn Macedonia into the third Albanian state
- ZZ also got this far by corruption hence his anti corruption campaign is based on utter rubbish, if the west and ZZ were serious about corruption then why don't they release any recordings of the drug dealing murderers thugs turned politicians DUI? Come on guys??

People say in this forum that VMRO is not much better, Though the most immediate and most serious threat is from ZZ. Considering ZZs actions he is not an legitimate alternative.. this man is evil and will plunge Macedonia to war and needs to step down or shot. Then deal with the others..

If you look back at history, the west have always kept us orthodox Christians down and divided in the Balkans. From Ottoman times, to the recent Balkan wars, they even supported the Albanian narrative in 2001 and doing the same thing now. ZZ is simply the Vehicle supporting these latest efforts.
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