Russia, Ukraine and the West

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  • Karposh
    Member
    • Aug 2015
    • 863

    I thought this was an interesting discussion on Putin's invasion of Ukraine. The guy in the video, Konstantin Kisin, touches on a number of points here including the fact that many on the right did not expect Putin to actually invade Ukraine (myself included) and were left a little stunned by what's transpired over the last couple of days. He also touches on the issue of Ukrainian nationhood and whether it is a construct of old soviet-era times, as Putin has declared, or a legitimate nation in its own right. I mentioned this in an earlier post on this thread, while approaching it from a completely uninformed and ignorant position, and it seems there are more and more videos popping up discussing this very issue. From a Macedonian point of view, where our own identity has bee denied in the past and is constantly still being denied today by our neighbours, far be it for me to question Ukrainian nationhood but there seems to be a growing number of videos actually discussing this very topic. It's hard to believe anything that's being said at the moment (if I'm being honest) but, by the sounds of it, Putin will not be satisfied with just the Crimean peninsular and the eastern bits of Ukraine but all of Ukraine. Some are saying that the two most likely scenarios are: i) A division of Ukraine straight down the middle or; ii) A complete annexation of Ukraine by Russia. They aren't even talking about the possibility of Ukraine retaining some kind of sovereignty with the majority of its territory intact.

    Freddie Sayers meets Konstantin Kisin.Listen to the podcast version: https://shows.acast.com/lockdowntv-with-freddie-sayers/konstantin-kisin-who-should-we-tr...

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    • kompir
      Member
      • Jan 2015
      • 537





      Доста бе Вегето една, во секоја манџа се мешаш

      Comment

      • Risto the Great
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 15658

        Nothing is real!
        Risto the Great
        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

        Comment

        • kompir
          Member
          • Jan 2015
          • 537

          Се е вештачко
          Доста бе Вегето една, во секоја манџа се мешаш

          Comment

          • Liberator of Makedonija
            Senior Member
            • Apr 2014
            • 1595

            Becoming quite clear where Bulgaria inherited her denialism from....
            I know of two tragic histories in the world- that of Ireland, and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.

            Comment

            • Dove
              Member
              • Aug 2018
              • 170

              According to Martin Armstrong Putin is doing war like Alexander the Great.

              I have been warning the West should not mess with Putin. It is so obvious that the West has made the same fatal mistake as that of Rome. It has weakened its

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              • kompir
                Member
                • Jan 2015
                • 537

                Glenn Greenwald's take on the relentless propaganda fest from the MSM and Uncle Sucker:

                Every useful or pleasing claim about the war, no matter how unverified or subsequently debunked, rapidly spreads, while dissenters are vilified as traitors or Kremlin agents.
                Доста бе Вегето една, во секоја манџа се мешаш

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13670

                  Originally posted by Karposh
                  It's hard to believe anything that's being said at the moment (if I'm being honest) but, by the sounds of it, Putin will not be satisfied with just the Crimean peninsular and the eastern bits of Ukraine but all of Ukraine. Some are saying that the two most likely scenarios are: i) A division of Ukraine straight down the middle or; ii) A complete annexation of Ukraine by Russia. They aren't even talking about the possibility of Ukraine retaining some kind of sovereignty with the majority of its territory intact.
                  The extent of Russian operations in Ukraine is greater than expected, but it doesn’t come as a total shock. They were prepared for such an eventuality, even though they may have treated it as a last resort not too long ago. Putin’s objectives have evolved with each provocation, be it from western or Ukrainian officials. If NATO just agreed to halt its eastward expansion, this would not be happening. Instead, they insisted on it, all while disregarding Russia’s security concerns. Then they egged on Zelensky and co. to be belligerent and defiant against a militarily superior opponent, rather than to pursue a reasonable political solution. Zelensky goes on to make an empty threat about obtaining nuclear weapons when tensions were at their highest, before handing out firearms to every Tom, Dick and Harry in Kiev, extremists or otherwise. Then he positioned his missiles in populated urban centres. It has been one stupid manoeuvre after another by the political novices who run Ukraine, whose country is at war, has lost even more territory and is further away from NATO membership than it has ever been. By every measure their strategy has been a total failure. Russia could not have justified their actions simply because the Russian language or pro-Russian voices were suppressed in Ukraine. The West created the pretext and Ukraine’s politicians were played as pawns, some of them willingly. And as people needlessly suffer in the current conflict, defence and energy companies are making their plays for the future.
                  He also touches on the issue of Ukrainian nationhood and whether it is a construct of old soviet-era times, as Putin has declared, or a legitimate nation in its own right. I mentioned this in an earlier post on this thread, while approaching it from a completely uninformed and ignorant position, and it seems there are more and more videos popping up discussing this very issue. From a Macedonian point of view, where our own identity has bee denied in the past and is constantly still being denied today by our neighbours, far be it for me to question Ukrainian nationhood but there seems to be a growing number of videos actually discussing this very topic.
                  The Rus identity came from a Scandinavian tribe that conquered parts of European Russia and Ukraine (and Belarus) centuries ago. Following the Mongol invasion, the people in those territories lived through different experiences for substantial periods. Although most remained Orthodox Christian and used similar ethnonyms derived from their former Scandinavian overlords, the separation and varied influences meant that their languages diverged from each other. The region that would later become Ukraine was contested by various powers, until much of it became part of the Russian Empire, followed by the USSR. Putin may try to argue that Ukrainian statehood was a soviet project or that soviet authorities nurtured a Ukrainian identity as a counter-balance to Russian nationalism, but irrespective of what they called themselves, he cannot argue against the unique commonalities shared by many Ukrainians, as evidenced by their language and history. Thus, while the Ukrainian identity may be relatively new, the sense of a distinct community in Ukraine was not without foundation. Those commonalities, however, were not shared by all the people of Ukraine, many of whom spoke Russian and identified with Russian history. Therein lies the biggest problem. Nevertheless, the condescending attitude towards Ukrainian nationhood by Putin is counterproductive, does not foster solidarity and is certain to breed more resentment, particularly in the west of Ukraine. It is also a politically irrelevant argument that should not have featured as part of his justification for Russia’s military activities in Ukraine. He should have limited his comments on this matter to their common heritage, but instead he denigrated the Ukrainian identity and in doing so, unnecessarily opened himself up to criticisms that detract from his more valid arguments. He needs to cut his losses on this issue, as many Ukrainians will never feel an affinity for Russia again, let alone feel part of the Russian nation. Unfortunately, Ukrainian nationalism has also been tainted by Nazi sympathisers, which, given the history, enables Putin, right or wrong, to claim "denazification" as one of his goals.
                  Originally posted by Liberator of Makedonija
                  Becoming quite clear where Bulgaria inherited her denialism from....
                  I’m not sure if the Bulgars learned this from the Russians, as they’ve been doing it for over 150 years. That said, the Bulgars would like nothing more than to draw an analogy between Ukrainians and Macedonians, even though the two situations, whilst similar in some respects, have many important differences. Denialism usually transpires when one group advances quicker than another and often has more to do with control and territory than anything else, despite claims to the contrary. Sometimes, these issues are overcome by common sense. Other times, people refuse to grasp the truth, even though the myth about their own origins can be deconstructed and discredited with the equivalent amount of determination.
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • Karposh
                    Member
                    • Aug 2015
                    • 863

                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    The Rus identity came from a Scandinavian tribe that conquered parts of European Russia and Ukraine (and Belarus) centuries ago. Following the Mongol invasion, the people in those territories lived through different experiences for substantial periods. Although most remained Orthodox Christian and used similar ethnonyms derived from their former Scandinavian overlords, the separation and varied influences meant that their languages diverged from each other. The region that would later become Ukraine was contested by various powers, until much of it became part of the Russian Empire, followed by the USSR. Putin may try to argue that Ukrainian statehood was a soviet project or that soviet authorities nurtured a Ukrainian identity as a counter-balance to Russian nationalism, but irrespective of what they called themselves, he cannot argue against the unique commonalities shared by many Ukrainians, as evidenced by their language and history. Thus, while the Ukrainian identity may be relatively new, the sense of a distinct community in Ukraine was not without foundation. Those commonalities, however, were not shared by all the people of Ukraine, many of whom spoke Russian and identified with Russian history. Therein lies the biggest problem. Nevertheless, the condescending attitude towards Ukrainian nationhood by Putin is counterproductive, does not foster solidarity and is certain to breed more resentment, particularly in the west of Ukraine. It is also a politically irrelevant argument that should not have featured as part of his justification for Russia’s military activities in Ukraine. He should have limited his comments on this matter to their common heritage, but instead he denigrated the Ukrainian identity and in doing so, unnecessarily opened himself up to criticisms that detract from his more valid arguments. He needs to cut his losses on this issue, as many Ukrainians will never feel an affinity for Russia again, let alone feel part of the Russian nation. Unfortunately, Ukrainian nationalism has also been tainted by Nazi sympathisers, which, given the history, enables Putin, right or wrong, to claim "denazification" as one of his goals.
                    Excellent historical summary and assessment of the current situation SoM. I appreciate the effort in putting all that together. I agree completely with everything you said especially with Putin's unnecessary denigration of Ukrainian identity. There was absolutely no need for that. Like you said, Ukrainians will never again have an affinity for the Russians after all of this is over. He should have just stuck to his original and very valid concerns regarding NATO's belligerent eastward expansion despite promises that they wouldn't do that.

                    Comment

                    • Phoenix
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2008
                      • 4671

                      Originally posted by kompir View Post
                      Glenn Greenwald's take on the relentless propaganda fest from the MSM and Uncle Sucker:

                      https://greenwald.substack.com/p/war...raine-becoming
                      Great article...hits home so many truths about the current BS tsunami swamping news about this conflict.

                      So much absolute BS on so many levels that it's hard to find a place to start in unravelling the disinformation shit-storm, but one certainty is that the Americans are fucking idiots and have totally fucked this up in the most amateurish fashion imaginable.

                      I just want the MSM to run ONE honest story and just report that the US has pushed Ukraine into a corner by promising them NATO membership against Russia's geopolitical interests, they pushed and pushed the Russian's to this point and now the US has walked away from any real obligation to protect Ukraine.

                      All we get from the US is some piss weak cheerleading from the sidelines but no significant military aid, no biting sanctions against the Russians and the European NATO members are even more impotent, they haven't said shit and are doing shit.

                      And yet the MSM keep playing this up as the world uniting to help Ukraine against the Russians, where the reality is that Zelenskyy is begging for international help, he's been forced to hand weapons to anybody willing to fight, encouraging people to make molotov cocktails as if any of that is going to stop battle hardened troops that cut their teeth in the Chechen and Syrian bloodbaths.

                      Go USA - keep pouring your Russian vodka down the sink, that will show them...

                      If the UK, Germany, Japan or Russia had the arsenal that the USA has anyone of them would rule the entire world for a thousand years but the yanks keeps shooting themselves in the foot.

                      Comment

                      • Dove
                        Member
                        • Aug 2018
                        • 170

                        Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                        Nothing is real!
                        Why would it be - the war is a fraud.

                        Someone that has been paying attention to the 'conflict' said he understood it was a fraud because of the bizarre and contradictory statements made by the actors in this game.

                        I too decided it was a fraud based on what I had seen up to Thursday.

                        This is what I had seen up to that point:

                        Some time ago Macron saying how bad and serious the situation was and barely holding back laughter. I have been told he did this on a second occasion.

                        A few days before the invasion - a woman rushing to the car as if in danger and the man she is with, on the phone and cool as a cucumber, with all the time in the world. Everyone else going about their lives as normal.

                        An Aussie reporter on the scene swearing away as missile are around saying 'better get inside'. - Is that because missiles cannot penetrate buildings or are unlikely to be the target?

                        A supposed fire caused by a hit of some sort and the person's phone moving around nowhere and not focussing on the scene.

                        Also, I watched a live broadcast from the UK, the focus at the time was smoke in a building. This is what was happening:

                        A fireman supposedly putting out a fire deliberately not hitting the source but aiming the hose below the floor level of the billowing smoke.
                        No window coverings on any of the windows
                        A piece of fabric coming out of one window about twice the length of a storey - was that supposed to be a curtain?
                        mangled balustrading on the two blocks of apartments – incomprehensible
                        inside the rooms there was unpainted plasterboard - the joins and nail marks having been plastered, were visible.
                        the apartment building appeared vacant.
                        some people walking around at ground level 'boo hooing' – seriously better and more actors required for a performance such as this.

                        Back in Aus – the PM making an announcement on the situation jumping upwards now and again – he seemed excited

                        a guy fighting a war and wearing a surgical mask

                        The Ukraine president was/is an actor/comedian (apparently) – say no more.

                        It would be funny to watch the B grade performance if no-one got hurt or died but that is impossible.


                        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                        Then he positioned his missiles in populated urban centres.
                        Sure, why not do that. Maybe he even marked out the areas with survey pegs and florescent paint to make sure they 'bombed' the right spots.

                        It was suggested to me that they may be getting rid of old infrastructure to make way for new. I heard Catherine Austin Fitts talk about this in relation to the BLM campaigns that destroyed infrastructure in strategic locations in the US. She called it disaster capitalism. It was related to smart cities and locations of Federal Reserve Banks. You know 'build back better'. Ae so zdrae!

                        Comment

                        • Dove
                          Member
                          • Aug 2018
                          • 170

                          Volodymyr Zelensky Voiced Paddington Bear, Won Dancing With the Stars: Videos Of Ukrainian President Go Viral Amid Invasion



                          Козаки | Пороблено в Украине, пародия 2014 Translation: Cossacks | Made in Ukraine, parody 2014

                          Вечерний Киев.Рубрика "Пороблено в Україні", пародия "Козаки"НАШ САЙТ: http://kvartal95.com/FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/kvartal95GOOGLE+: https://plus...


                          Wow! Just wow!

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            Originally posted by Karposh View Post
                            Excellent historical summary and assessment of the current situation SoM. I appreciate the effort in putting all that together. I agree completely with everything you said especially with Putin's unnecessary denigration of Ukrainian identity. There was absolutely no need for that. Like you said, Ukrainians will never again have an affinity for the Russians after all of this is over. He should have just stuck to his original and very valid concerns regarding NATO's belligerent eastward expansion despite promises that they wouldn't do that.
                            Thanks, Karposh. It is important to articulate on such points given the current hysteria. Like you indicated earlier, it is difficult to know what should be believed. MSM claims that Russian troops are indiscriminately killing Ukrainian civilians. RT claims that Ukrainian troops are doing the same to the Russian-speaking residents of Donbas. If either is true it should be condemned in the strongest possible terms. Amazingly, RT still has a few segments that present the opposing perspective, however limited. Afshin Rattansi did a whole interview with someone a couple of weeks ago who spent most of his time knocking Putin and Russia on the current issue. Airtime for such criticism levelled at Biden and the U.S. is basically non-existent on MSM, unless we include Tucker Carlson. Unfortunately, well-rounded information is almost impossible to find. There is also talk of Russia’s alleged use of cluster bombs, which are terrible (and terrifying) weapons that should never be used when there are civilians on the ground. Again, if this is the case, they should be condemned. But during their reporting on the current conflict, how many MSM outlets also mention that Ukrainian forces used cluster bombs in Donbas back in 2014 or that the U.S. notoriously killed scores of innocent people in Yugoslavia and Iraq using the same weapons? All normal people want is balanced information. Most get only bias.
                            Originally posted by Dove View Post
                            Sure, why not do that. Maybe he even marked out the areas with survey pegs and florescent paint to make sure they 'bombed' the right spots. It was suggested to me that they may be getting rid of old infrastructure to make way for new.
                            Russia stated that its intention was to destroy military targets. These are away from densely populated areas. Yet, the brainiacs who run Ukraine thought it appropriate to position some heavy weaponry in the middle of a city. Surely, they must know there is a chance that such recklessness may solicit a response that could be disastrous. Why not place the equipment away from urban centres, where the chances of civilian casualties are less likely? And as Russian forces carry out their operation, the West is sending more military equipment to Ukraine. And round and round we go. I most certainly don’t support a full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine and right now, the picture doesn’t look good, despite being marred by disinformation. However, not to justify any of the recent developments, I understand why Russia would want to eliminate the precursor to NATO’s military infrastructure at their doorstep. The U.S. would do the same in Mexico, if the latter was being armed to the teeth by Russia as a step towards an anti-U.S. military alliance. Whether anybody likes it or not, Russia and the U.S. are not your average countries, they are military superpowers with spheres of influence and as such, their security concerns in their respective regions cannot be ignored. That is just the reality of the world we live in.
                            Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                            And yet the MSM keep playing this up as the world uniting to help Ukraine against the Russians, where the reality is that Zelenskyy is begging for international help, he's been forced to hand weapons to anybody willing to fight, encouraging people to make molotov cocktails as if any of that is going to stop battle hardened troops that cut their teeth in the Chechen and Syrian bloodbaths.
                            I wouldn’t understate Zelensky’s culpability in this whole fiasco. He revelled in his role as NATO apologist whilst travelling to international capitals and talking tough against Putin, even though NATO was unequivocal – it was not going to deploy troops in Ukraine to fight against Russia. He could have been instrumental in avoiding this disaster if he argued in favour of a political solution that would allow Ukraine to maintain its dignity and progressively reassert its sovereignty. Instead, he tried to reassure Ukrainians that the future prospect of U.S. missiles in their country would be a good thing, never mind the concerns of the militarily superior and nuclear-armed country next door, that just happens to be the largest on earth. So, he forces his people to stay and fight as proxies under the guise of Ukrainian patriotism (which many of them genuinely believe in) and is now asking western countries to secure his airspace, which will bring them in direct confrontation with Russia. He hasn’t learned a damn thing and is either a total dimwit being strung along by war-mongering politicians from the U.S. and elsewhere or completely delusional and unaware of the potential consequences of his actions. The sooner Ukraine’s people have the freedom to vote in somebody that isn’t compromisingly tethered to external interests, the better.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Risto the Great
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 15658

                              USA has always been altruistic at heart.
                              But then this:

                              This is why Ukraine matters.
                              It is the second-largest country by area in Europe by area and has a population of over 40 million.

                              Ukraine ranks:
                              1st in Europe in proven recoverable reserves of uranium ores;
                              2nd place in Europe and 10th place in the world in terms of titanium ore reserves;
                              2nd place in the world in terms of explored reserves of manganese ores (2.3 billion tons, or 12% of the world's reserves);
                              2nd largest iron ore reserves in the world (30 billion tons);
                              2nd place in Europe in terms of mercury ore reserves;
                              3rd place in Europe (13th place in the world) in shale gas reserves (22 trillion cubic meters)
                              4th in the world by the total value of natural resources;
                              7th place in the world in coal reserves (33.9 billion tons)
                              Ukraine is an important agricultural country:
                              1st in Europe in terms of arable land area;
                              3rd place in the world by the area of black soil (25% of world's volume);
                              1st place in the world in exports of sunflower and sunflower oil;
                              2nd place in the world in barley production and 4th place in barley exports;
                              3rd largest producer and 4th largest exporter of corn in the world;
                              4th largest producer of potatoes in the world;
                              5th largest rye producer in the world;
                              5th place in the world in bee production (75,000 tons);
                              8th place in the world in wheat exports;
                              9th place in the world in the production of chicken eggs;
                              16th place in the world in cheese exports.

                              Ukraine can meet the food needs of 600 million people.
                              Ukraine is an important industrialized country:

                              1st in Europe in ammonia production;
                              Europe's 2nd’s and the world’s 4th largest natural gas pipeline system;
                              3rd largest in Europe and 8th largest in the world in terms of installed capacity of nuclear power plants;
                              3rd place in Europe and 11th in the world in terms of rail network length (21,700 km);
                              3rd place in the world (after the U.S. and France) in production of locators and locating equipment;
                              3rd largest iron exporter in the world
                              4th largest exporter of turbines for nuclear power plants in the world;
                              4th world's largest manufacturer of rocket launchers;
                              4th place in the world in clay exports
                              4th place in the world in titanium exports
                              8th place in the world in exports of ores and concentrates;
                              9th place in the world in exports of defense industry products;
                              10th largest steel producer in the world (32.4 million tons).


                              .... In contrast, I imagine whatever is happening in Burundi or Somalia somehow manages to escape the opportunistic interventionist version of altruism that the USA spreads.
                              Risto the Great
                              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                              Comment

                              • Spirit
                                Member
                                • May 2015
                                • 154

                                Zelensky is the Ukrainian Zoran Zaev, another NATO imperialist tool

                                Comment

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