Zoran Vraniskovski proposes Slav Macedonia

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  • Bill77
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2009
    • 4545

    Originally posted by Buktop View Post
    Another one of Vangelovski's stooges...
    No not at all. i just love that post. Why? he put time into it to search for your comments, it would have been some sort of effort to put it all together, and very clever comments he made.

    Where my self, i would not whaist my time with you. i rather stick needles in my eye.
    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

    Comment

    • Buktop
      Member
      • Oct 2009
      • 934

      Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
      No not at all. i just love that post. Why? he put time into it to search for your comments, it would have been some sort of effort to put it all together, and very clever comments he made.

      Where my self, i would not whaist my time with you. i rather stick needles in my eye.
      Once again, another Vangelovski stooge
      "I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"

      Never once say you walk upon your final way
      though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
      Our long awaited hour will draw near
      and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!

      Comment

      • Vangelovski
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 8531

        Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
        Where my self, i would not whaist my time with you. i rather stick needles in my eye.
        Bill77,

        Having gone through Buktop's posts, I can assure you than sticking needles in one's eye is much less painful and much more enjoyable
        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

        Comment

        • julie
          Senior Member
          • May 2009
          • 3869

          Buktop,, I think what everyone is trying to say here, aside from "stooge" Mastika (seeing that is what you are labelling others not in support of your argument) that they will NEVER agree with what you have stated, and that if you were to continue for another 40 pages, then, they still wouldnt.
          I think its time to perhaps let go of this one, its not going to happen
          "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

          Comment

          • Risto the Great
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 15658

            Originally posted by Buktop View Post
            You asked me this

            Then I asked you which definition you are implying and what time period.

            Based on what has been discussed, at one point or another no Nations existed as we know them today. The predominant criteria of association in the past was clearly religion. This clearly explains the divisions experienced by Bosnians, Serbs and Croats. What divides them, they share a very similar language, they share a very similar culture, they share very similar genetics. What differs is their subjugation under separate empires which affected their religious affiliation.

            What distinguished modern French with modern Germans? Ancient Gauls were Germanic, ancient Germans were Germanic, Ancient Britons were Germanic, stemming from similar genes, culture, customs and language, what separated them in modern terms? How did each nation come about? What distinguished one from another? Especially considering that they were so similar in ancient context?

            Macedonian National awakening is no different than any other National awakening, I cannot tell you exactly when it took place, all I can tell you is that an Identity had to have existed in order for it to occur.

            So to answer your question, under the definition that I and Vangelovski use, all Nations follow the same criteria, and no one National awakening is more significant than the other. They all follow the same criteria and all came into existence as a result of unity.

            Here are the definitions again as presented by Vangelovski and myself.

            I don't really know what you are asking me, are you asking whether I believe only the Macedonian Nation didn't exist? Are you asking whether all Nations followed the same criteria? Or are you asking me to find you examples of similar instances of National Awakening in comparison to that of Macedonia?
            I merely had no idea what you were getting at. You have a unique way of stretching a point to abstraction. If you are saying that Macedonia (like all other nations) has not always fit within the modern definition of a nation, then I agree with you.

            I think religion is an example of what may have helped forge a national identity for some nations. But I also believe it is far from being the sole determinant.

            If I am allowed some latitude, can I assume you believe we were all Bulgars or Slavs who established a national identity relatively recently? Notwithstanding this horrible assumption, what were we before the national identity fell upon us?
            Risto the Great
            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

            Comment

            • Mikail
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 1338

              Nicely put RTG
              From the village of P’pezhani, Tashko Popov, Dimitar Popov-Skenderov and Todor Trpenov were beaten and sentenced to 12 years prison. Pavle Mevchev and Atanas Popov from Vrbeni and Boreshnica joined them in early 1927, they were soon after transferred to Kozhani and executed. As they were leaving Lerin they were heard to shout "With our death, Macedonia will not be lost. Our blood will run, but other Macedonians will rise from it"

              Comment

              • TrueMacedonian
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2009
                • 3810

                Wow you guys are still at it lol. Maybe everyone should lay out their ideas of what, when and how the Macedonian Nation and State began.
                Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                Comment

                • Buktop
                  Member
                  • Oct 2009
                  • 934

                  Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                  I merely had no idea what you were getting at. You have a unique way of stretching a point to abstraction. If you are saying that Macedonia (like all other nations) has not always fit within the modern definition of a nation, then I agree with you.
                  I apologize for that, my points tend to get diluted when carrying on so many different conversations at one time. But yes that is what I am trying to say.

                  I think religion is an example of what may have helped forge a national identity for some nations. But I also believe it is far from being the sole determinant.
                  Completely agree

                  If I am allowed some latitude, can I assume you believe we were all Bulgars or Slavs who established a national identity relatively recently? Notwithstanding this horrible assumption, what were we before the national identity fell upon us?
                  To tell you the truth, with recent evidence presented here and on Maknews, I have really questioned what a Slav is, so I would not really classify people of the Balkans as Slav's or Bulgars, one, because if the migration theory is true, they are simply a movement of people that couldn't possibly be large enough to displace the entire indigenous populations, and two, if the migration theory is not true, and the term Slav is in reference to indigenous populations, why does the term become associated with the populations primarily starting in the 4th century? Could it have been a Roman or East Roman constructed class term? How could one define what a Slav was at the time?

                  Bulgars are a different story, a small invading force that conquered some land and ruled over some people, I would hardly label any people of the Balkans primarily Bulgar...

                  So in short, I would not use these terms because there are too many questions surrounding their definitions and what people were associated under these terms. Most effective I think would be Macedonian Christians, or Macedonian Muslims. I am by no means an expert on Byzantine rule in Macedonia, but I do know that religion was the primary association and was reinforced in the Ottoman empire under the Millet system where they were treated as Dhimmi/Zimmi. At some point under the Ottoman empire there was a crystallization that occurred, and a united movement for a Nation was being formed.
                  Last edited by Buktop; 04-19-2010, 12:52 PM.
                  "I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"

                  Never once say you walk upon your final way
                  though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
                  Our long awaited hour will draw near
                  and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!

                  Comment

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