Objective Moral Values

[fyrOM]

But that does not explain the existance of objective moral values. What you describe are only subjective moral values. For instance, the Nazi's decided that it was fair and reasonable to murder millions of people in death camps. Without God, it cannot be argued that the holocaust was wrong or evil - it was simply a matter of 'social conditioning' and what was right for that particular society at that particular time. However, we know that that was wrong and evil based on our God-given objective moral values.

Not at all. We glorify the holocaust as a pillar of moral corruption which should never be allowed to happen and like yourself many see some attachment to God to it yet for thousands of years man has been whipping out whole tribes to take recourses be it land food or whatever.

Was it not God that told the Jews to take the Promised land when they discovered people were already living there growing crops and tending animals. Was God a hypocrite. Theres more bloodshed in the Bible than we care to think and a decent amount of contradictions. The Jews winged to God that not only that there are people there but that they are too many and that they fear defeat and being killed. Gods not coy about what he wants them to do. Jew kills lots of people good…lots of Jews get killed bad…must have to do with that Chosen People thing. Do you honestly believe the usa lost over 4000 troops and untold many more lamed and spent a trillion dollars just so Iraqi and Afghan little girls will have the right to go to school…if you do Ill show you a bridge I could sell you.

I know you are not going to like what I’ve written because it is also human nature to have an awareness of oneself which leads to the sense of self identity. Religion forms a core layer of that self identity and anything which puts their religion into question is felt like the core of their identity is put into question.

[Vangelovski]

The Buddhist Religion doesn't need a Diety to underpin its very strong moral code

But that code is just its own subjective code. Without God, its code holds no moral value. If they make it up themselves, then whats to say that its good or bad? Who's to define good and bad? If there is no God, then its all subjective and what is good for you is bad for me and vice versa. Hitler believed that it was good to murder million of people and we would have to accept that that is ok for him to do in his own self-defined moral order, if we are to argue that God is not necessary for objective moral values.

[Vangelovski]

Not at all. We glorify the holocaust as a pillar of moral corruption which should never be allowed to happen and like yourself many see some attachment to God to it yet for thousands of years man has been whipping out whole tribes to take recourses be it land food or whatever.

Was it not God that told the Jews to take the Promised land when they discovered people were already living there growing crops and tending animals. Was God a hypocrite. Theres more bloodshed in the Bible than we care to think and a decent amount of contradictions. The Jews winged to God that not only that there are people there but that they are too many and that they fear defeat and being killed. Gods not coy about what he wants them to do. Jew kills lots of people good…lots of Jews get killed bad…must have to do with that Chosen People thing. Do you honestly believe the usa lost over 4000 troops and untold many more lamed and spent a trillion dollars just so Iraqi and Afghan little girls will have the right to go to school…if you do Ill show you a bridge I could sell you.

I know you are not going to like what I’ve written because it is also human nature to have an awareness of oneself which leads to the sense of self identity. Religion forms a core layer of that self identity and anything which puts their religion into question is felt like the core of their identity is put into question.

OziMak,

The question is not about supposed "contradictions" in the Bible, justified killing or whether humans are good or evil. The question is can objective moral values exist without God? You claim that they can, but how?

[osiris]

Ozi mak very good post

[Vangelovski]

Ozi mak very good post

Good post? Neither of you have explained how objective moral values can exist without God...

[osiris]

Its not contradictions that are hard to swallow its the double standards and confused ideas that get me the Judeo christian religion is based on blond obedience and fear of retribution and her claims its about love tolerance and forgiveness

[Vangelovski]

Its not contradictions that are hard to swallow its the double standards and confused ideas that get me the Judeo christian religion is based on blond obedience and fear of retribution and her claims its about love tolerance and forgiveness

Osiris,

You started to argue that God does not need to exist in order for objective moral values to exist - the very purpose of this thread. Can you demonstrate this?

[osiris]

It's not contradictions that are hard to swallow its the double standards and confused ideas that get me the Judeo christian religion is based on blind obedience and fear of retribution and now claims its about love tolerance and forgiveness

[Vangelovski]

It's not contradictions that are hard to swallow its the double standards and confused ideas that get me the Judeo christian religion is based on blind obedience and fear of retribution and now claims its about love tolerance and forgiveness

So you're not interested in an honest debate about objective moral values? Or you just cannot back up your original claims?

[osiris]

Tom I dont think there is a god and if there is i don't think its Yahweh l

[Vangelovski]

Tom I dont think there is a god and if there is i don't think its Yahweh l

If you don't believe in God, how then do you explain objective moral values?

[osiris]

No I don't believe in objective moral values I think all our systems of morality are human not god given not god inspired. At what time in human history does your god reveal himself

[Risto the Great]

Don't Buddhists have objective moral values?

[Vangelovski]

No I don't believe in objective moral values I think all our systems of morality are human not god given not god inspired. At what time in human history does your god reveal himself

So if you don't believe in objective moral values, then you must accept that child abuse is neither morally good nor morally evil? It may be evil for you, but for someone else it could be good. If you disagree, on what basis would you be able to define it as morally bad, seeing that you think morals are subjective and hence valueless?

[osiris]

You really are scraping the barrel now vangelovski its you who doesn't want an honest debate on where human value systems originate