Muslims in Balkan Should Promote Europe of Peace and Hope

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  • spitfire
    Banned
    • Aug 2014
    • 868

    #31
    To guess that somebody is uneducated on the subject of religion means that you consider him not being aware of religion.

    What did you think of the Quran then Nikolaj when you read it?

    You don't have to remind us of how christianity is by far the most corrupted religion, as this is already proven by numbers of human victims. Christianity is by far the most corrupted.
    What I don't get is how Christianity is considered by default good and Islam by default evil.
    Well I do get it to be sincere. It's simply because we think we hold the truth and not somebody else. Pure egotistical BS, as usual with all religions.

    George S. All religions are created by man. Or the necessity of man to explain the inexplicable if you will. All three of them are the story of men who claim their divine connection by revealed truth. No matter of how, a prophet or god himself.
    All three Abrahamic religions are about the same thing.

    You may think, or need to think that we are special, you are free to do that. But stick to yourself when you say that, cause it can't be proven.
    Last edited by spitfire; 10-15-2014, 06:07 AM.

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    • Nikolaj
      Member
      • Aug 2014
      • 389

      #32
      Originally posted by spitfire View Post
      To guess that somebody is uneducated on the subject of religion means that you consider him not being aware of religion.

      What did you think of the Quran then Nikolaj when you read it?
      I've only read a small amount of sections of interest and have had long discussions about it with my GP who has told me a lot about it.
      Not only me, but he himself has doubts about many things within Islam.

      Originally posted by spitfire View Post
      You don't have to remind us of how christianity is by far the most corrupted religion, as this is already proven by numbers of human victims. Christianity is by far the most corrupted.
      It's as if you didn't read my previous post...
      The religion has been corrupted, to the point where Catholic crusaders killed Orthodox Christians.
      This is NOT a corrupt religion, this is corrupt people who have power within it.

      Originally posted by spitfire View Post
      What I don't get is how Christianity is considered by default good and Islam by default evil.
      Once again, did you not read my previous comment?
      - The Islamic bible directly promotes harm upon non-islamic people, even Judaism does.
      - The Christian bible has never promoted harm onto anyone, and anyone who has done so within Christianity is not a a true Christian as they oppose what Christianity is about.
      - Just like I pointed out how the Catholic crusaders killed more Orthodox Christians than Muslims. How does this appear 'religious' to you? - It's not.


      This is where you went wrong, generalising religion, let alone Christian branches.
      - Christianity is not corrupted. A branch in Christianity is corrupted (Catholics; which is where I strongly assume you're getting this idea).
      - Which is where you're going wrong, you see something corrupted within Christianity but not understand that's only a branch.
      - Even if that branch of Christianity is corrupted, it still doesn't mean the religion is bad, once again, just the people in power.

      Lets do an example of something corrupted...
      - Child molestation.
      - Catholic priests have resorted to child molestation as everyone knows, and can you assume why? Because they can't get married, why would they not be able to get married? It's clear, so when they pass away their inheritance goes towards the Catholic church.
      - In Orthodoxy there's no child molestation, since you can't be a priest without being married. Why? Because sexual tension is only human nature, which is why there's no bad things like that in Orthodoxy.
      - Hence why is you're an Orthodox priest and your wife passes away, you are no longer a priest but a position lower.
      - If you die, your inheritance is passed onto your children.

      Can you see my point here? Are we to label all Christian branches as a bunch of corrupt child molesters? Absolutely not.

      Hence my point, stop generalising religion. Having the view you do 'Christianity is corrupt!' is absolutely ignorant of facts.

      Originally posted by spitfire View Post
      Well I do get it to be sincere. It's simply because we think we hold the truth and not somebody else. Pure egotistical BS, as usual with all religions.
      So tell me, lets say there was one true religion. Are we to conclude that it's false and just highly egotistical because they say there's is the true one?
      Absolutely not, your position on that is heavily diluted and is actually a loop implying no religion is true.

      Lets bring this a step further.
      If there were a true religion, and other ones were made and there were bad ones, are we to say f#@k religion in general and forget that there is a true one?
      That they all claim the same thing, lets not believe in anything, logical right?

      Originally posted by spitfire View Post
      George S. All religions are created by man. Or the necessity of man to explain the inexplicable if you will. All three of them are the story of men who claim their divine connection by revealed truth. No matter of how, a prophet or god himself.
      All three Abrahamic religions are about the same thing.

      You may think, or need to think that we are special, you are free to do that. But stick to yourself when you say that, cause it can't be proven.
      Religion is for 'man', of course if there was a God, 'humanity' has to be an entity. Christianity is the experience of men who connected with God, where in the new testament prophecies were fulfilled, and man witnessed God. I'm not saying all this actually happened, i'm saying that's what is claimed, neither they or I am trying to prove to you this really happened.

      He never tried to prove to you his religion is correct. He is only pointing out the disturbing things within other religions which with logic and simple rationality makes Christianity appealing to him.
      I know a lot of Muslim people who are now Christians or Atheists for the exact same reason, period.

      Comment

      • spitfire
        Banned
        • Aug 2014
        • 868

        #33
        Nicolaj it is you haven't read what I have written already.
        You don't have to waste time trying to tell me that a religion is not to be attributed the evils of men excersising it.
        I have written it in the previous page of the thread.

        Try to talk me into how this, in the westerners mind, does not apply to the muslim religion as well, especially when we know that Christianity is by far the one with the most victims.

        You are comparing apples with oranges. If you want to compare religions, you'd have to compare them as they are. By disecting doctrines of religions in order to compare them with other religions without taking into account the doctrines of those other religions is simply wrong.

        It's christianity and Islam, not a church of christianity and Islam.

        So, what did your discussions have to say about the merciful God of Islam? Do you think it is wrong to try and save your soul by good deed. For instance is it wrong to give to the poor?
        Last edited by spitfire; 10-15-2014, 07:16 AM.

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        • DraganOfStip
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2011
          • 1253

          #34
          Originally posted by Nikolaj View Post
          - The Islamic bible directly promotes harm upon non-islamic people, even Judaism does.
          Can you post a few links to parts of Quran and the Torah (I believe this is the name of the Hebrew holy book,if not I apologize for my ignorance) where these religions directly call upon harm against non-islamic / non-jewish people?
          Last edited by DraganOfStip; 10-17-2014, 07:16 AM.
          ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
          ― George Orwell

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          • Nikolaj
            Member
            • Aug 2014
            • 389

            #35
            Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
            Can you post a few links to parts of Quran and the Thora (I believe this is the name of the Hebrew holy book,if not I apologize for my ignorance) where these religions directly call upon harm against non-islamic / non-jewish people?
            For making war against Allah and his Messenger
            5:33 "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger ... will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom."

            Just a simple example, there's plenty more.
            I'm currently studying for an exam on Friday so I really don't have much more time to spend on this but I surely will advance stuff like this.
            However, I don't have an agenda to prove Christianity > Islam, or vice versa, or that Islam is bad or good.
            Rather, I was clearing up a few misconceptions.

            Comment

            • Nikolaj
              Member
              • Aug 2014
              • 389

              #36
              Originally posted by spitfire View Post
              Nicolaj it is you haven't read what I have written already.
              You don't have to waste time trying to tell me that a religion is not to be attributed the evils of men excersising it.
              I have written it in the previous page of the thread.

              Try to talk me into how this, in the westerners mind, does not apply to the muslim religion as well, especially when we know that Christianity is by far the one with the most victims.
              This is what I don't understand. Please give me some examples and i'll give you a rational answer.

              Also, elaborate on what does not apply to the muslim religion?

              You are comparing apples with oranges. If you want to compare religions, you'd have to compare them as they are. By disecting doctrines of religions in order to compare them with other religions without taking into account the doctrines of those other religions is simply wrong.
              That's like saying you need false religions to ensure the true one is correct.
              I never said you can't compare religions, I was only saying it's wrong to generalise all religions as bad, specifically about your generalisation of Christianity. [/QUOTE]

              It's christianity and Islam, not a church of christianity and Islam.

              So, what did your discussions have to say about the merciful God of Islam? Do you think it is wrong to try and save your soul by good deed. For instance is it wrong to give to the poor?
              I do not see how the Islam god is merciful.
              I can see how the God portrayed in Christianity is.

              One easy way of seeing that is just how he acts towards his non believers.
              - Islam portrays extreme negative behaviour on non believers of their God.
              - Christianity doesn't.

              It's a simple, unbiased, and rational answer.
              I was not religious when I was younger. However, due to the extensive growth knowledge of science.
              I came to my conclusions and Christianity just seemed the most appealing, not because it was supposed to be passed to me by family.

              I will get back to you tomorrow friend, for now this procrastination has gone too far

              Comment

              • spitfire
                Banned
                • Aug 2014
                • 868

                #37
                Originally posted by Nikolaj View Post
                For making war against Allah and his Messenger
                5:33 "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger ... will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom."

                Just a simple example, there's plenty more.
                I'm currently studying for an exam on Friday so I really don't have much more time to spend on this but I surely will advance stuff like this.
                However, I don't have an agenda to prove Christianity > Islam, or vice versa, or that Islam is bad or good.
                Rather, I was clearing up a few misconceptions.
                Well, you are making more misconceptions by simply putting this alone.

                So, someone who attacks somebody, will have himself killed by those defending. And in the wisdom of Allah this is what happens to attackers.

                Pretty much like saying that god has provided that to happen. Well guess what:
                The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! Nahum 1:2-8.

                Comment

                • DraganOfStip
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2011
                  • 1253

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Nikolaj View Post
                  5:33 "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger ... will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom."
                  As I understand,this is for people that "make war against" muslims,not non-muslims in general just because they're from another religion.
                  ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                  ― George Orwell

                  Comment

                  • Nikolaj
                    Member
                    • Aug 2014
                    • 389

                    #39
                    Originally posted by spitfire View Post
                    Well, you are making more misconceptions by simply putting this alone.

                    So, someone who attacks somebody, will have himself killed by those defending. And in the wisdom of Allah this is what happens to attackers.

                    Pretty much like saying that god has provided that to happen. Well guess what:
                    The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! Nahum 1:2-8.
                    You are reading from the old testament


                    Dragan, tomorrow i'll explain further, what I said earlier wasn't in reference to the verse I gave you, only an example of something negative from their quaran.

                    chao
                    Last edited by Nikolaj; 10-15-2014, 08:18 AM.

                    Comment

                    • spitfire
                      Banned
                      • Aug 2014
                      • 868

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Nikolaj View Post
                      This is what I don't understand. Please give me some examples and i'll give you a rational answer.

                      Also, elaborate on what does not apply to the muslim religion?
                      When we use God and religion we automatically think we are the good guys whilst when somebody else does the same from his position but different than ours is a bad guy.

                      Originally posted by Nikolaj View Post
                      That's like saying you need false religions to ensure the true one is correct.
                      I never said you can't compare religions, I was only saying it's wrong to generalise all religions as bad, specifically about your generalisation of Christianity.
                      To the muslim the false religion is yours. To you it is the muslim's religion.

                      Originally posted by Nikolaj View Post
                      I do not see how the Islam god is merciful.
                      I can see how the God portrayed in Christianity is.
                      Every chapter in the Quran starts like this: In the name of Allah the merciful.

                      Originally posted by Nikolaj View Post
                      One easy way of seeing that is just how he acts towards his non believers.
                      - Islam portrays extreme negative behaviour on non believers of their God.
                      - Christianity doesn't.
                      I'm wondering if this was to the knowledge of the conquistadors. Or the crusaders.
                      What are your thoughts about the quote from the bible about the wrath of God?

                      Originally posted by Nikolaj View Post
                      It's a simple, unbiased, and rational answer.
                      I was not religious when I was younger. However, due to the extensive growth knowledge of science.
                      I came to my conclusions and Christianity just seemed the most appealing, not because it was supposed to be passed to me by family.

                      I will get back to you tomorrow friend, for now this procrastination has gone too far
                      You were probably not asking him the right questions. Or he wasn't sure about his religion which is the norm in these cases.
                      Last edited by spitfire; 10-15-2014, 08:24 AM.

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                      • spitfire
                        Banned
                        • Aug 2014
                        • 868

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Nikolaj View Post
                        You are reading from the old testament

                        chao
                        A book that is accepted by Christians to its entity. Unless you think otherwise. But then you are not talking about Christians.

                        Comment

                        • Philosopher
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1003

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Spitfire
                          Philosopher. In a doctrine you just don't disagree. If you disagree you are a heretic.
                          That's the way it is with doctrines. For someone who is orthodox, the tradition is faith.
                          Do you go to the church? Where is the name of the priest who performs the liturgy in the scriptures? Where is the name of the bishop?
                          Spitfire, appellations such as “heretic” mean nothing to me. Church membership also means nothing. Salvation does not consist of corporal church membership, priests, or litugry.

                          Originally posted by Spitfire
                          This scripture sticking without the holy tradition is what Jehoba's witnesses do. Not that I have a problem even if it was about supporters of olympiacos, but this is not the orthodox doctrine.
                          I am not a Jevhovah's witness. You are free to think and believe what you will.

                          Originally posted by Spitfire
                          We have a clear dissagreement for Islam. I say that the main idea is the same. Probably this is fundamental to our discussion. I am not saying it's the same. I'm talking about the main idea which is not different, and that the muslims are deamonised in the eyes of the westerners, although their religion is by far the one with the most slayers. Not to be attributed to Christianity of course, but also not to be attributed to Islam, as the religion of... the bad guys.
                          Spitfire, the central tenants of Christianity is that God became a man, was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, fulfilled the Messanic prophecies of the Old Testament, died on the cross for the sins of his people, and resurrected. The central tenant of Christianity is that there is salvation only in the man Jesus Christ.

                          Allah in the Quran teaches there is salvation only in his name, not in Jesus.

                          Originally posted by Spitfire
                          Just to show you how wrong you are. This is one of the 7 holy mysteries. The third day someone dies it is performed. Do you know why is it performed and why is it so important on the third day?
                          Spitfire, you sound like a broken record. We have already discussed this. You believe church tradition is equal to Scripture. I disagree.

                          Originally posted by Spitfire
                          Because its a prayer for the salvation of the soul, which starts exactly at the third day its horrific trip through those 23 legions of deamons.
                          A person is not saved by Unction. A person is saved by grace through faith.

                          Originally posted by Spitfire
                          Do you understand now the place of tradition in the orthodox faith? These details are not in the scriptures. They are on other scriptures/decisions/traditions that constitute the faith because they explain the faith. They stem from the scriptures therefore they are faith, by default!
                          We have already gone over this. We disagree. Church tradition is not necessary to explain the Old or New Testaments, though there is nothing wrong with reading it or consulting it for guidance.

                          Originally posted by Spitfire
                          You don't have to remind us of how christianity is by far the most corrupted religion, as this is already proven by numbers of human victims. Christianity is by far the most corrupted.
                          An extradodinary statement for someone claiming to be a Christian.

                          Spitfire, Christianity is not the most corrupt religion. You have to separate the actions of ignorant people in the name of Christ from the teachings of Christ and the New Testament, which you obviously do not do.

                          Originally posted by Spitfire
                          What I don't get is how Christianity is considered by default good and Islam by default evil.
                          There is no default understanding. The debate is whether these religions have the same central tenants.

                          Originally posted by Spitfire
                          All religions are created by man.
                          A clear indication that you are not a Christian. How else can one explain why a person who believes God became a man and revealed himself and the true revelation of God make the argument that all religions are created by man.

                          Originally posted by Spitfire
                          All three Abrahamic religions are about the same thing.
                          Just because Muslims trace their religion to Abraham does not mean these religions have the central tenants or central ideas or worship the same god.

                          Allah is a different god with a very different idea of salvation.

                          The Quran and the Bible are incompatible.

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                          • spitfire
                            Banned
                            • Aug 2014
                            • 868

                            #43
                            Philosopher, I don't care even if you believe in a macaroni monster. I only care about the misconception on your mind of what the doctrine of orthodox is and the automatic evilness of Islam.
                            You stick to the scriptures, that's fine by me. You can stick to whatever you want. But tradition stems from the scriptures, this is what you don't get.
                            It's through tradition that we have the line of Bishop from Peter. It from the tradition that we get baptized at an early age. It's from tradition that we have litourgy. These are not stated anywhere in the scripture.
                            I don't think you understand what the holy tradition is.

                            Please try to read all my post about attributation of evil in religion. I cannot repeat that all the time.

                            The salvation of the human soul is the central idea in these three religions. That's it. It's no other.

                            What do you want me to do? Show you my id card? I have kept it because it states my religion, as a souvenir.
                            Last edited by spitfire; 10-15-2014, 09:44 AM.

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                            • Philosopher
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 1003

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Spitfire
                              Philosopher, I don't care even if you believe in a macaroni monster. I only care about the misconception on your mind of what the doctrine of orthodox is and the automatic evilness of Islam.
                              I have no misconception about the Orthodox doctrine. I was born and raised in the Orthodox doctrine. I have studied it myself. I never wrote Islam is evil. I wrote that Islam and Christianity worship different gods, and have a different system of eternal salvation.

                              Originally posted by Spitfire
                              You stick to the scriptures, that's fine by me. You can stick to whatever you want. But tradition stems from the scriptures, this is what you don't get.
                              Really? Tradition stems from Scripture? Where have I denied this?

                              Originally posted by Spitfire
                              It's through tradition that we have the line of Bishop from Peter. It from the tradition that we get baptized at an early age. It's from tradition that we have litourgy. These are not stated anywhere in the scripture.
                              I don't think you understand what the holy tradition is.
                              I understand it very well.

                              Originally posted by Spitfire
                              The salvation of the human soul is the central idea in these three religions. That's it. It's no other.
                              Spitfire, do you believe the same God authored both the New Testament and the Quran? If not, which one is accurate? If so, why does the Quran contradict Scripture and Orthodox tradition? Which book do you believe is true?

                              The problem I have is that, on the one hand, you claim to be an Orthodox Christian, which means you believe in the Trinity, the Divinity of Jesus Christ, his vicarious death on the cross, and his resurrection; and on the other hand, you believe the Quran is the final revelation (the trilogy) and that Muhammad is the final prophet.

                              Please explain to us how you can reconcile this belief system.

                              Comment

                              • spitfire
                                Banned
                                • Aug 2014
                                • 868

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                                I have no misconception about the Orthodox doctrine. I was born and raised in the Orthodox doctrine. I have studied it myself. I never wrote Islam is evil. I wrote that Islam and Christianity worship different gods, and have a different system of eternal salvation.
                                All the same here, but it took research to find out more about the details.
                                The Jews, the Christians and the Muslims worship the same god, with the same thing in mind, but in a different way.

                                Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                                Really? Tradition stems from Scripture? Where have I denied this?
                                You have denied this when you said that the legions of deamons are only tradition and this does not apply because it is not on the scriptures Philosopher.
                                Don't make me show what you wrote. It's already there.

                                Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                                I understand it very well.
                                I really think you just don't know anything about tradition and its place in the faith. Tradition is faith.

                                Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                                Spitfire, do you believe the same God authored both the New Testament and the Quran? If not, which one is accurate? If so, why does the Quran contradict Scripture and Orthodox tradition? Which book do you believe is true?
                                Philosopher, I think these books are crap, but if I had to coose one I'd choose the new testament, because it is closer to the story I would like to read and connect myself with.

                                Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                                The problem I have is that, on the one hand, you claim to be an Orthodox Christian, which means you believe in the Trinity, the Divinity of Jesus Christ, his vicarious death on the cross, and his resurrection; and on the other hand, you believe the Quran is the final revelation (the trilogy) and that Muhammad is the final prophet.

                                Please explain to us how you can reconcile this belief system.
                                Well, I don't have any problem with it. I'm not saying that Muhammad is the final prophet or anything. I'm simply saying that the depiction of what is good, is presented differently according to the people and the area.
                                However, the main idea is the same for all.

                                Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                                A person is not saved by Unction. A person is saved by grace through faith.
                                Unction is tradition, tradition is faith. Therefore Unction is about the saving of the soul. Do you want an example of this? Of how a soul is saved by the Unction and the prayers of others? Let me know.
                                Last edited by spitfire; 10-15-2014, 11:06 AM.

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