Russia, Ukraine and the West

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  • Vangelovski
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 8531

    I don't necessarily agree with all the analysis in this article, but its an interesting perspective nonetheless:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/04/wo...-opinion-irpt/
    If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

    The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

    Comment

    • Vangelovski
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 8531

      Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
      Tom,

      You're the one who brought up Coca-Cola. More than once, I believe. So as to relevance, I redirect.

      And as for your emphasis placed on my quote, remind yourself that the second phrase you placed in bold is an either-or, and to just bold one of the possibilities and not the other does not do anything for any point that you're trying to say about a point that I'm supposedly making, other than you're fashioning my point to be something other than it is.

      The evidence is already out on Gazprom's involvement. But sure. Wait and see. You'll find a way to believe that, just like with the Iraq war, multi-national corporations had nothing do with it. And because you're already starting from the viewpoint that multi-national corporations aren't that influential, you'll refute, deny and/or discredit any possible evidence so that you can maintain your premise. I think the word for that is conservative, but I don't have a dictionary at hand so I'm just going off of observations.
      Victor, lets clear this up. Do you or do you not believe that corporations have public officials that are directly working for their (the corporations') aims? They are your words, not mine. It seems your already trying to backtrack on what you said previously.

      As for Gazprom's involvement, what exactly are you saying that Gazprom has done - just so we are clear and you can't back track later or have your comments misunderstood?
      If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

      The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

      Comment

      • Vangelovski
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 8531

        A short article that touches on the competing narratives of Ukrainian identity from seven years ago. One that does not try to simplify or dismiss what's happening in the Ukraine as simple meddling from outsiders or disregard the genuine identity struggles happening amongst Ukrainians and Russophile Ukrainians.

        Ukrainians confronting identity crisis

        Woods, Eric Star - Phoenix [Saskatoon, Sask] 12 Apr 2007: A10.

        Following is the opinion of the writer, a former Saskatoon resident who currently teaches Canadian Politics at a Canadian Studies Centre in Ukraine.

        Recent events in Ukraine suggest the nation is fast approaching a full-blown identity crisis.

        Since the Orange Revolution of 2004, the divide between the predominantly Ukrainian-speaking, European-oriented Ukrainians in the western part of the country and the predominantly Russian- speaking, Russian-oriented Ukrainians in the eastern part of the country has widened so much that it is difficult to predict the outcome of the current crisis.

        The difference between then and now is that eastern Ukrainians have increasingly found their voice.

        As Ukrainians from the western city of Lviv and those from the eastern city of Donestk rush toward Independence Square in Kyiv, don't expect to see only the orange flags of President Viktor Yuschenko and Opposition leader Yulia Tymoshenko's "Orange Coalition." This time, the blue flags of Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych's eastern-based Region's Party and even the red flags of the Communist Party will be displayed just as proudly.

        The standoff in Ukrainian politics is often cast as the result of a "battle of civilizations" between Western countries and Russia. In this analysis, both civilizations compete to ensure that Ukraine remains one of their own. Thus, western countries accuse Russia of meddling in Ukrainian politics by supporting eastern Ukrainian political parties and Russia accuses the West of hijacking Ukrainian politics by supporting the western-based "Orange Coalition."

        Although the above analysis at least is partly true, the problem is that such a focus on geo-politics tends to obscure divisions within Ukraine itself. The ongoing political crisis is more than simply a question of Ukrainian foreign policy: it is a debate over how Ukrainians choose to define their young nation.

        Fifteen years since the creation of their independent state, Ukrainians remain incredibly divided over national identity. Questions related to history, culture, geography and language are all highly contested. Ukrainians argue over whether to recognize their past achievements as Soviets or whether to recognize past Ukrainians who fought for independence; whether they are European or Slavic; whether Ukraine is located in Central or East Europe; and whether theirs is a Ukrainian-speaking country, a Russian-speaking country, or both.

        As an example, visitors to the western part of Ukraine will find that monuments to the Soviet era all have been replaced with rediscovered Ukrainian heroes. But if visitors make their way to the eastern city of Kharkiv, they will be surprised to find a 20-metre monument to Lenin still standing in Europe's largest square.

        More than anything, language will be what surprises visitors the most.

        Although the country's constitution stolidly declares Ukrainian to be its only official language, this hardly reflects reality. Although state universities and government offices are meant to be run in Ukrainian, visitors to Kyiv (or Kiev, depending on who is writing), will be surprised to hear Russian as the language of the streets, shops, bedrooms and boardrooms.

        Indeed, with the notable exception of Lviv, Russian is the common language for most large cities in Ukraine, western or eastern. Meanwhile, among those who do speak Ukrainian, divisions exist as to what is the "true" Ukrainian language. None of this is to belittle Ukrainians or to expose their flaws. Rather, it is to serve notice to readers in the West that the political crisis in Ukraine, which has continued to grow since the Orange Revolution, cannot be attributed to meddling by Russia alone.

        Lenin stands tall in Kharkiv because Ukrainians living there are not yet willing to take him down. Readers should understand that the current political crisis is not simply a case of Yuschenko, Tymoshenko and the Orange Coalition boldly trying to triumph over undue Russian influence.

        It is better to understand this crisis as a battle taking place primarily among Ukrainians themselves.

        In the period immediately following independence, the definition of the national identity held by most western Ukrainians -- that theirs is a Ukrainian-speaking, European and western-oriented country -- dominated. Recently, Russian-speaking eastern Ukrainians have become more vocal in their opposition.

        The pertinent question now is whether Ukrainians will be able to find some way to accommodate their great diversity. If they cannot, it is difficult to see how they can avoid continuing to lurch from one crisis to the next.
        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

        Comment

        • vicsinad
          Senior Member
          • May 2011
          • 2337

          Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
          Victor, lets clear this up. Do you or do you not believe that corporations have public officials that are directly working for their (the corporations') aims? They are your words, not mine. It seems your already trying to backtrack on what you said previously.

          As for Gazprom's involvement, what exactly are you saying that Gazprom has done - just so we are clear and you can't back track later or have your comments misunderstood?
          Yes, that's what I am saying. In general, not referring to the Ukraine situation, it's common knowledge, obvious and "business as usual", as you'd say. Nothing new. Here's an essay on corporate influence on federal government.
          Secondly, there are advisory committees to government agencies. The fact is that the government does not have fact gathering apparati in a number of fields. And so, government agencies appoint committees to provide information and advice. Often, these committees contain many people from the industry involved. The information they provide are used in making public policy. Now, obviously, if the information that government agencies are getting is from the industry involved, then the perspective from which they get the information is likely to be one-sided. For example, if the government needs information on nuclear power, it most likely will call upon nuclear engineers for advice. However, these engineers come from the industry involved. The government does not usually consider the opinion of the private citizen, although the concerns that pregnant women have who live near Three Mile Island or other nuclear power facilities might well need to be taken into account. So the advice the government gets is often stacked in favor of the corporation.

          A third avenue that Nadel mentions is one he calls musical chairs or the revolving door effect. Many times individuals are employed in an industry, then get called upon to work as the head of an agency or on a regulatory commission, and then return to the industry in question. These people are going to be returning to work in the same industry they may be regulating. How independent can the thinking of these people be? Are they going to make a decision against the interest of that industry if they are eventually going to have to get another job in that industry? So this musical chairs or revolving door effect is a two-way traffic pattern between industry and government in which people go from working in the industry to working in the government, and back to working for the industry again.

          An example of this is the personal interchange program that some corporations have had. Sometimes a corporation may lend personnel to the government and the corporation may even pay them while they hold that government position. The corporation might say: "Look, we're being very patriotic. We're paying people to work for the government." However, others would suggest that these people have the interests of the corporation in mind. Often, such a bias may not be that obvious. It's simply that these people share the culture of the corporation as to what sort of decisions should be made. Many times they may just have a way of thinking that doesn't take the public interest into account.

          Fourthly, he talks about the high demand that exists for former members of the House or Senate to serve as lobbyists. Many times, when people retire from the House or Senate, they become lobbyists for major corporations. Now, first of all, these people know a great deal about the laws that have been passed relating to their new employer's industry, and they know the inside dealings that went into making these laws. What's more, former representatives and senators maintain the privilege of going on to the floor of their old chambers. That means that during a vote on a bill, they can go on the floor and lobby current senators or representatives as the case may be. No other lobbyists can do this. So these former legislators have a greater ability to influence the process than someone who doesn't have the privilege of the floor, or the other connections they do. Thus ex-senators and ex-representatives are often valued as lobbyists.
          Knowing this, it's hard to deny the high level of influence that corporations have on American policy.

          The process and means, in this Ukraine instance, is still not clear yet. We have weeks and months until a lot of the connections and other evidence comes out. But everything thus far is pointing the way to corporate influence.


          As for Gazprom, the conflict has been building up for years. And clearly, the words of Gazprom executives and Russian economic advisers and officials go hand-in-hand:


          'Behind the Russia-Ukraine Gas Conflict', January 2009


          Gazprom Sends Ukraine $7 Billion Dollar Bill as Gas Dispute Deepens, January 2013


          Gazprom Warns Europe About Selling Gas to Ukraine, April 2013


          'Russia and Ukraine edge closer to gas war', October 2013
          Gazprom demands payment of half a billion pounds in arrears in move seen by some as punishment for aligning with EU



          Ukraine's Maidan is the Struggle for the Gas Market, February 2014
          The conflict in Ukraine is a war for the redistribution of the gas market that brings billions in profits. This is not a Russian-Ukrainian conflict, but a...


          The conflict in Ukraine is a war for the redistribution of the gas market that brings billions in profits. This is not a Russian-Ukrainian conflict, but a Russian-European conflict. The European Union has missed the moment when it could have won over Viktor Yanukovych, economist Said Gafurov said in a live broadcast of Pravda.Ru.

          "Gazprom shares are very volatile because of the events on the Maidan," said the expert. There is a feeling that someone is trying very hard to change the very structure of the market, displacing Gazprom. "Here it is not so much about taking away the ownership from Gazprom for nothing, although this issue can also be discussed. It is more about the destruction of the profits that Gazprom receives as a mediator, as a gas trader, and not as a supplier or as a transporter of gas passing through the huge transport network in Ukraine
          ."

          "In 2015 election will be held in Ukraine. Currently, a very small minority that includes Bandera's heirs, about ten thousand people, are trying to impose their political will on the entire society. Empirical evidence shows that governments could be overthrown through the hands of relatively small groups. Very serious economic funds are involved at the Maidan. Privates are paid $200, and higher ranks $500," said the expert.



          According to Said Ghafurov, Viktor Yanukovych would have lost the 2015 election if it was not for the Maidan, and now it is not clear if he would lose." Why do people show such a tough obstinacy a year before the end of the president's powers? Why is there so much money at the Maidan?

          "There is a lot of money because there is more at stake than the $15 billion promised by Vladimir Putin," Gafurov said. "This is about the so-called "Third Energy Package" of the European Union that entered into force in 2011. This document refers to the separation of the owners of pipeline systems and the owner of the gas itself.



          "In many countries in Western, Central and Eastern Europe, Gazprom is now forced to provide access to their "pipe" to third parties, i.e., other vendors that wish to supply gas to Europe. If such third parties do not exist, then a part of the gas transmission capacities should still remain in reserve. That is, Gazprom cannot say that its pipes are filled with its own gas, and suggest waiting until there is room. It must pump gas of foreign firms at low rates from a large number of liquefied natural gas stations created on the coast of Western Europe," Gafurov explained.

          Russia is not satisfied with this proposal because it reduces the profitability of gas projects. As a consequence, due to profit shortfalls Gazprom is exempt from paying property tax. This is why Moscow is trying to achieve the abolition of the EU's "Third Energy Package," and this is why Moscow is so patient with Yanukovych.

          The expert explained that if Ukraine signed an agreement on association and voluntarily took upon itself the obligation to European standards, Gazprom would have lost the money it gained from exploitation of "insanely expensive pipelines" under a bilateral treaty with Ukraine. "Even the $15 billion loan will eventually pay off, not to mention the fact that the debt is a loan to be repaid," said Gafurov.

          "I am stressing again that the main goal is not the repression of Gazprom as a gas transporter, although that is true as well, but as a gas trader seeking to profit directly from the trading process. The main thing is not the gas, not the price of gas as it exits the gas pipeline. The main thing is this network that brings major profits. There is a colossal redistribution of the gas market, and, unfortunately, we do not have enough leverage with the EU position," said the expert.

          This position is "shameless" because "Third Energy Package" allows countries to cancel long-term commercial agreements signed with Gazprom. "The stakes are so high that one of the manifestations of the "Third Energy Package" was the destruction of Libya," continued Gafurov. "The attacks, the NATO bombing in Libya began in March of 2011, when its full implementation has begun. Gaddafi was known as one of the biggest supporters of the liquefied natural gas trade. "In Libya, there was an old liquefied natural gas plant, and it was building a new parallel super-complex and financed the construction of distribution centers in Germany, and now we have a global redistribution where people do not shy away from bombing, are not averse to a full-fledged war," said the expert.

          Gazprom shares are unstable because Ukraine's accession to the EU standards in the sale of gas is at stake, reiterated Gafurov. According to the expert, what is good for Gazprom is good for Russia. "Considering the scale, we are very interested in Ukraine not joining the "Third Energy Package" because it is bad for the Russian economy, for the balance of payments, for exports. As for Yanukovych, he would also benefit, and if he would have asked for 20 billion, we would have given him 20, and would still benefit," said the expert.

          "Yanukovych acted very cleverly as he solved his budget problems. Europeans refused to rescue him, and Russia has not. This, incidentally, is another success of the foreign policy of President Putin."

          What would happen with the $15 billion loan if Klitschko and company were to come to power? Can it be blocked? Gafurov thinks it is a possibility. This loan is a sort of an agreement that Russia will buy Ukrainian securities worth $15 billion.

          "Russia can sell them afterwards, drop them, bring down the market, and I am absolutely convinced that if suddenly a conditional Klitschko comes to power, he will be equally interested in this loan."

          Russia is winning as long as there is no discussion about Ukraine joining the "Third Energy Package" and generally European standards. "I think Klitschko forgot about it, it was the primary goal. But those who control him remember this. Of course, they will look for another option. And, of course, people who have already spent so much money will likely be able to find the sum to give Yanukovych a chance to play it back," said Gafurov.

          According to Said Gafurov, new EU standards would destroy many industries in Ukraine because they are different. "For example, the asbestos industry will die for sure because asbestos is banned in Europe. For Ukraine, it is quite significant. They will definitely make unfeasible the mines and most of all basic industries such as steel, because environmental requirements are too high, and it will be cheaper for Europe to buy products in South Africa or Australia. However, no one cares. "Even Polish politicians who reflect the interests of Polish industry openly say that it is okay if Ukrainian industry dies."

          Gafurov believes that Ukraine may join the Customs Union, but if it chooses not to, it will be fine. A free trade zone with the CU can be created. "Then the Ukrainian pipes will compete with the Russian ones as they are cheaper. In The Customs Union each country has its own currency, and Ukraine will be able to manipulate its exchange rate, providing great commercial profit. The Customs Union is a market of 170 million people. This is really significant, and it has bright future, as evidenced by the fact that 40 countries have already expressed their willingness to start negotiations on a free trade zone with the CU," concluded Gafurov.

          Comment

          • Vangelovski
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 8531

            Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
            Victor, lets clear this up. Do you or do you not believe that corporations have public officials that are directly working for their (the corporations') aims? They are your words, not mine. It seems your already trying to backtrack on what you said previously.

            As for Gazprom's involvement, what exactly are you saying that Gazprom has done - just so we are clear and you can't back track later or have your comments misunderstood?
            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
            Yes, that's what I am saying. In general, not referring to the Ukraine situation, it's common knowledge, obvious and "business as usual", as you'd say. Nothing new. Here's an essay on corporate influence on federal government.
            Just so we're clear, what exactly are YOU saying is Gazprom's involvement in the current Ukrainian crisis - I know what the media is saying, I want to be clear on what you are saying. Reposting media articles is just squirming around and setting yourself up for a backtrack later on.

            Further, I'd like to know what involvement YOU think American corporations have had in the current Ukrainian crisis?
            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

            Comment

            • vicsinad
              Senior Member
              • May 2011
              • 2337

              I've made myself abundantly clear.

              Comment

              • vicsinad
                Senior Member
                • May 2011
                • 2337

                Clearly, Tom, this has become more about assuring yourself that I am either wrong, a backtracker, or a hypocrite, rather than being about the actual topic at hand. Which does little good for anything or anybody, except maybe your pride.

                Comment

                • Gocka
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2012
                  • 2306

                  Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                  Just so we're clear, what exactly are YOU saying is Gazprom's involvement in the current Ukrainian crisis - I know what the media is saying, I want to be clear on what you are saying. Reposting media articles is just squirming around and setting yourself up for a backtrack later on.

                  Further, I'd like to know what involvement YOU think American corporations have had in the current Ukrainian crisis?
                  I think you are getting a little too personal about this and getting further from debating the actual points he is making.

                  He is being clear and he hasn't really back tracked, he has maintained the whole time that corporate interests play a massive role in foreign and domestic policy, and that at least gazprom is some how connected to the Russian involvement in Ukraine. which I dont think is untrue.

                  As for the US another theory being floated around is that the US did this intentionally to provoke Russia because Russia foiled the West's plans for regime change in Syria. So in response the US tried to hit Russia where it hurts. Russia has been growing in stature for a while now, gaining momentum as an international player, and the US knew that Russia would probably react in such a rash manner since they did it before in Georgia. It sounds plausible but again it too early to tell, where are only about a week into this thing so its anyone's guess.

                  Back to Vicsinad's points. He is right about the law making process and corporations. It is most evident at the local level. Any town where a big corporation calls home, you typically have a local mayor that is practically in their pocket because they funded him to get elected.

                  Comment

                  • Vangelovski
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 8531

                    You haven't been clear at all Victor and seeing as you are always one of the first to cry victim, I just want to make sure I understand exactly what you're saying, so I'll repost my latest questions which you have not answered. Again, I don't want links to news articles I've already read, I want to know what you think.

                    What exactly are YOU saying is Gazprom's involvement in the current Ukrainian crisis?

                    I'd like to know what involvement YOU think American corporations have had in the current Ukrainian crisis?
                    If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                    The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                    Comment

                    • Toska
                      Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 137

                      Your all wrong America has pushed this from day one, they want Russia surrounded by the American Missile Defense Shield, defense or more like attack shield, it was installed in Poland and Czech so it "would stop likely attacks from Iran" but everyone knew this was complete bollocks, id love to see what America would do if Russians went to Canada and started spreading their propaganda too the Canadians or Mexicans or said we have to build missile silos in Mexico to protect Europe from missiles being shot from Brazil, this has nothing to do with corporations or democracy its all for America to have their AMDS at Russia's doorstep
                      Last edited by Toska; 03-05-2014, 08:56 AM.

                      Comment

                      • vicsinad
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2011
                        • 2337

                        Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                        You haven't been clear at all Victor and seeing as you are always one of the first to cry victim, I just want to make sure I understand exactly what you're saying, so I'll repost my latest questions which you have not answered. Again, I don't want links to news articles I've already read, I want to know what you think.

                        What exactly are YOU saying is Gazprom's involvement in the current Ukrainian crisis?

                        I'd like to know what involvement YOU think American corporations have had in the current Ukrainian crisis?
                        First I state my views. Then you say I'm not providing evidence for my views. Then I post links to evidence, albeit circumstanial and indirect, but evidence nonetheless, and then you say you don't care about the evidence for my views, and you now just want my views just in case of potential backtracking.

                        What is more important: what I'm saying, or what the evidence says? I guess it all depends on what you find relevant at the current moment. I'm not saying anything different than what the evidence is saying, you have your answers. Multiple times, in multiple ways.
                        Last edited by vicsinad; 03-05-2014, 09:49 AM.

                        Comment

                        • vicsinad
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2011
                          • 2337

                          Originally posted by Toska View Post
                          Your all wrong America has pushed this from day one, they want Russia surrounded by the American Missile Defense Shield, defense or more like attack shield, it was installed in Poland and Czech so it "would stop likely attacks from Iran" but everyone knew this was complete bollocks, id love to see what America would do if Russians went to Canada and started spreading their propaganda too the Canadians or Mexicans or said we have to build missile silos in Mexico to protect Europe from missiles being shot from Brazil, this has nothing to do with corporations or democracy its all for America to have their AMDS at Russia's doorstep
                          I think that's true, for the most part. But I think that's just dispute manifesting in the geopolitical form. There's also the underlying interest of money and profit; control of resources and profit. A lot of times, policy makers and corporate powers fashion these things to go hand-in-hand.

                          Comment

                          • vicsinad
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2011
                            • 2337

                            Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                            .

                            Back to Vicsinad's points. He is right about the law making process and corporations. It is most evident at the local level. Any town where a big corporation calls home, you typically have a local mayor that is practically in their pocket because they funded him to get elected.
                            But according to some people, that doesn't necessarily mean corporate powers really have that big of an influence on policy.

                            I just don't see how anyone can honestly and reasonably deny the severity of corporate influence in American (local, federal and international) policy with all the insurmountable heaps of evidence. It's fact: it's business as usual and an integral part of the American political culture. It's the free market, and the free market and politics are intrinsically connected. There is no greater influence on American policy in this day and age. The only instances where corporate influences sometimes lose out are when it becomes too politically costly; ie, the masses are so aware and against an issue that a politician could lose an election. Even in many of those instances, the appeasement of the masses is temporary, or else different channels are used to accomplish sinister (greedy) goals.

                            Comment

                            • Gocka
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2012
                              • 2306

                              The places where you can find the most evidence on corporate influecne is in local papers, Especially the farming and mining regions in the US. Look up the local news in those areas and everyday you will find a story about how the entire town is trying to lobby against corporation XYZ due to pollution, misuse of public land, corrupt dealing with local authorities, etc.

                              Turn on a big national station like CNN and you wont hear a word about it, but pick up your local newspaper and you will be shocked what you will find. Just in my local paper today I read about a massive drug bust, and a murder that both took place in the town next to mine (I live in the middle of no where) where crime is extremely low. A few months ago a story broke in the local papers about the mayor in the town I live in being in cahoots with the road building companies. There has been a road that they have been building for like 5 years and it was supposed to take 2, they are double over the budget and the tax payers are on the hook for it. I think hes about to be under investigation for taking bribes. Mind you the road building company is a massive corporation (Tylcon).

                              Listen to local radio stations are read local news papers and your perception of the immediate world around you will change dramatically.

                              Comment

                              • George S.
                                Senior Member
                                • Aug 2009
                                • 10116

                                Its not about lobbying of coca-cola,its about seeking & fighting for independence.Now they managed to talk to each other & broker a peacedeal.Russia wouldn't budge But seeking for their indendence the crimea needs to be part of the Ukraine.That's whats needednot cocacola.Nato has downgraded the calls for sanctions but for more cooperation.
                                Do people realise the Ukraine people bore most of the 2nd world war brunt,With something like 20 million people killed.
                                Moscow without the Ukraine from a Russian perspective is almost unthinkable as Moscow will be nothing without it.
                                At the moment they are hoping for a referendum & this will setermine what level of automation people get.
                                Last edited by George S.; 03-05-2014, 02:39 PM.
                                "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                                GOTSE DELCEV

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