The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece

[Soldier of Macedon]

Didn't get who the idiot from Morea is.

Your politicians from the early 90's.

Well, you'll have to get over it about FYROM.....

No, we don't have to get over it, and we won't validate that stupid acronym here.

.....keep from the maps what is useful for you, just as you do with Bulgarian statistics.

That's not the same thing. Sometimes it's impossible to avoid older sources due to the value of their content, but in this case you have a modern map which uses the acronym even though the period in question is during Ottoman times. Look harder and find another map or exclude the section which refers to the acronym. Next time you post such a map or links to such maps, they will be deleted. The acronym is an insult to us. Understand that and keep it in my mind when you post anything here.

[Carlin]

The map is from 1997 (as seen in the legend) and refers to 1769.
Actually this is far from crap, this is a very serious effort. You can enter the book here, and see many similar maps (about 10 detailed maps per district or era). LOL, sorry it seems there's no chapter on Peloponnese.

http://www.vlachs.gr/el/news/vlachs-1900

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I don't doubt this is a serious effort, the issue here seems to be is that this is a serious effort of present (remaining) Vlach villages and culture.

The current ethnographic situation is then taken and projected back into the past, to specifically 1769 (the destruction of Moschopolis), and we are asked to believe and accept the map as is.

There are many questions that arise, but I will only ask two very specific questions:

1) Why was the "Probable Mijak" group included in the first map of the Vlach ancestral group in 1769? If the "Mijaks" were included (who are at best a mix of Slavophones and Vlachophones), why not include other similar groups? More importantly, and I ask this seriously, what is the evidence / facts that the "Mijaks" spoke (exclusively) Vlach in 1769?

2) Why were the Vlachs of Acarnania excluded? There are no tiny/small 'dots' of Vlachs in Acarnania. This is interesting because, number 1) does the author know the Vlachs emigrated here after 1769, and number 2) what is the evidence of this emigration to Acarnania after 1769?

If there was even one or two such villages at/prior to 1769, why do we not see small 'dots' in Acarnania?

... And we do know there are Vlachs in Acarnania for the following simple reason:

The language of Acarnania's Vlachs (Karagounidhes): recording of language under disappearance

https://www.didaktorika.gr/eadd/handle/10442/34870?locale=en

The subject of this thesis is the study of the idiom of Vlach (Karagouniki) language group of Acarnania. Its purpose is the cross-sectional study of the important elements of the Vlach idiom (phonetics-phonology, morphology, syntax, etc.). Additionally, its aim is to record and annotate the vocabulary of this idiom especially in areas where it is of particular interest, namely in the field of onomasiology (anthroponymy and toponymy). The work is based primarily on primary (on the spot) research but also secondary research (reviews) is employed.

[Carlin]

How much is the proportion of modern Greek population of Wallachian origin?

At least 30%.

[Carlin]

1) Anonymi Descriptio Europae orientalis. Imperium Constantinopolitanum, Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Ruthenia, Ungaria, Polonia, Bohemia. Anno MCCCVIII exarata. Cracoviae, 1916: As per the anonymous traveler of Eastern Europe from the XIV century, it is stated that Vlachs (whom the author calls "Blasi"), are a numerous people living between Macedonia, Achaia and Salonika.

2) Johann Thunmann, Untersuchungen uber die Geschichte der ostlichen europaischen Volker, I. Leipzig, 1774: The author states that Vlachs represent half the population of Thrace, and three quarters of inhabitants of Thessaly and Macedonia combined.

3) Inhabitants of Greece through the eyes of various foreign visitors and travelers. Various regions/areas:

"The once glorious Athens is so desolate that it seems incredible that it was once glorious. I, for one, did not see anywhere a more terrible place. Wilderness, swamps...." »DAramon, French ambassador.

"The population of Samos is Turkish." Ruy Gonzales de Clavijo, envoy of the king of Castile, Henry III, the court of Tamerlane.

"Eleusis is now a poor village with 1,200 inhabitants, mostly Albanians." - John Fulleylove MClymont JA, 1902.

"The Albanians from Arcadia are three times more numerous than the Turks." » (The present state of the Morea called Peloponesus, Bernard Randolph, an English traveler, London, 1686).

"Kos is inhabited by Turks." (Pierre Belon, a French physician and botanist, 1546.)

"Mykonos.. It was almost uninhabited." Thevenot (1655).

[Amphipolis]

For Akarnania you'll have to look at the map of page 12. There are different colors depending on the era of arrival. For some towns and villages there are exact dates on the map.

For details you'll have to find his articles. His books are attractive and awarded but as far as I can see this guy (Koukoudis) as a scientist is so-so.

By the way, are you writing a PhD on Vlachs?

[Amphipolis]

How much is the proportion of modern Greek population of Wallachian origin?

In the 1928 and 1951 censuses they are numbered as 0,3% and 0,5% respectively based on mother language. In 1928 they are more frequent in Epirus (1,7%) and Macedonia (1,0%).

[tchaiku]

A Greco-Albanian Epirot has revealed to me his Aromanian origin. Many Northern Epirots (those in Albania) are aware of Arvanites and neo-hellenism unlike the Greeks in Greece.
I did speak to an Arvanite some months ago in Albanian and I was told that 1/5 of Greeks are in reality Arvanites.

[Amphipolis]

The first census that records language (home language) is in 1870. Total population is 1,458,000 people. Based on language: Greek 95%, Albanian 2,6%, Vlach 0,8%. At the time Greece is what now is South Greece (Thessaly & Crete are not yet included).


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[tchaiku]

However I disagree, I do not believe that 1/5 of Greeks are Arvanites more like 10%.


Johann Georg von Hahn (father of “albanology”) concludes the total number of 173.000 Arbanites in Greece in 1854 (Albaneische Studien,1854).
(total population of Greece 1.096.810)
After Hahn’s own corrections he finally comes to the number of 158.000.(he has done some mistakes about Fokis and Spercheios areas)

Alfred Philipsson, after touring Peloponese in 1889 ,counted 90.253 Arbanites in this area (730.000 total) .(9.5%)
As for the total number he considers it was 224.000 in a total of 2.187.208 (that’s 10%) (zur ethnographic des Peloponnes,pettersmans mittelingen,1890)

[Amphipolis]

That's interesting. I haven't heard of any of these before, but I suspect they did it in the same way as Lithoxoou. They used the detailed census data, and for the villages or small towns they considered as Arvanite they counted everybody in.

Maps and details here:

http://www.lithoksou.net/p/plithysmos-kai-xoria-ton-arbaniton-1879-%E2%80%93-1907-2005

With this method, Lithoxoou estimates them as 10,6% in 1879 and 9% in 1907 (the area of Greece had changed in between).


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[Carlin]

The Slavic Elements in the Cretan Vocabulary (in Polish; English Summary)

http://www.academia.edu/6878626/The_Slavic_Elements_in_the_Cretan_Vocabulary_in_Polish_English_Summary_

[tchaiku]

The map is from 1997 (as seen in the legend) and refers to 1769.
Actually this is far from crap, this is a very serious effort. You can enter the book here, and see many similar maps (about 10 detailed maps per district or era). LOL, sorry it seems there's no chapter on Peloponnese.

http://www.vlachs.gr/el/news/vlachs-1900

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I was searching in Wikipedia and I found out this map.



Thessaly was a Wallachian state as early as 13th century.

[tchaiku]

Aromanians another category ( Vlachs) are those who are known today as "Greek minority" in Albania. It is historical fact that the ancestors of the "minorities" of today were farmers coming from the Pindos mountains, to work on southern areas. Zones of them have come to the Middle Ages and during the time that the new name was different "Wallachia" (For more you can read the "History of the Balkans" by Georges Castellan) So arrivals as farmers in areas Vurgu, Delvina, Dropullit etc. were Greek-Vlach. Given the influence of the church and especially in the Greek policies, we can understand very well why the so-called "Greek minority" is called such way. So "Greek minority" is not a Greek minority.

[tchaiku]

the new name was different "Wallachia" (For more you can read the "History of the Balkans" by Georges Castellan)

Thessalian Vlachia was apparently also known as "Vlachia in Hellas" (ἐν Ἑλλάδι Βλαχία), as well as "Great Vlachia" (Μεγάλη Βλαχία), to distinguish it from other Vlach-inhabited areas, "Upper Vlachia" in Epirus, and a "Little Vlachia" in Aetolia-Acarnania
Perhaps that is what they are talking about?

More on Great Vlachia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vlachia

The contemporary Byzantine historian Niketas Choniates however distinguishes "Great Vlachia" as a district near Meteora.[3] "Vlachia", "Great Vlachia", and the other variants began to fall out of use for Thessaly at the turn of the 14th century, and with the emergence of Wallachia north of the Danube, from the 15th century the name was reserved for it.

After the conquest of large parts of the Byzantine Empire in the mid-1340s, the Serbian ruler Stefan Dushan was crowned emperor in 1346, founding the Serbian Empire.[12] In 1347–1348 he and his general Preljub extended Serbian control over Epirus and Thessaly.[13] Afterwards, Stefan Dushan claimed the titles, in Latin, of imperator Raxie et Romanie, dispotus Lartae et Blachie comes ("Emperor of Rascia and Romania [Byzantine Empire], Despot of Arta and Count of Vlachia").

[Carlin]

Aromanians another category ( Vlachs) are those who are known today as "Greek minority" in Albania. It is historical fact that the ancestors of the "minorities" of today were farmers coming from the Pindos mountains, to work on southern areas. Zones of them have come to the Middle Ages and during the time that the new name was different "Wallachia" (For more you can read the "History of the Balkans" by Georges Castellan) So arrivals as farmers in areas Vurgu, Delvina, Dropullit etc. were Greek-Vlach. Given the influence of the church and especially in the Greek policies, we can understand very well why the so-called "Greek minority" is called such way. So "Greek minority" is not a Greek minority.



The grammar errors are from Google Translate I did not bother reconstructioning the paragraph entirely.

What is the title of this article and would you be able to provide source/link? Thanks.