Macedonia and the European Union

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  • fyrOM
    Banned
    • Feb 2010
    • 2180

    Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
    fyrOM, thank you for the prominent display of superficiality. I will call upon you again when I need to learn nothing about a subject but want to get the "vibe" of what people are trying to give off.
    fyrOM Post006...
    Oh, Gees, TRG, am I supposed to have a list of all the companies and projects - the way you make it sound, nothing at all has happened.
    Many of the infrastructure, eg road ect projects, have been featured by other posters on the MTO, while I know, from reading newspapers, that other articles/items did not make it on the MTO - maybe they weren't considered news worthy enough? - and I don't have access to the Macedonian version of ASIC so compiling a list from back news article would be difficult, tedious, and time consuming, but the fact that some articles have hit the MTO in the past should suffice that something, rather than nothing, has been going on in terms of direct EU investment/grants/subsidies (eg rural)/cheap loans and indirect EU via Institutionalised private investors.

    If you have time to compile a list, or someone already has a list - great!

    Two that come to mind to start you off are the grants for the major transit highways and subsidies which transformed/modernised and picked up the rural sector which many Macedonians are involved in.

    Comment

    • Vangelovski
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 8531

      fyrOM,

      Addiction to subsidies is a communist disease that Macedonia needs to overcome. Its part of the larger slave mentality that makes them reliant on others. Meto Koloski has taken it to the extreme recently suggesting that Macedonians cannot protect their own culture and need others to do it for them. I don't see how EU subsidisation will help Macedonians build a competitive and productive economy - It'll lead to more of the same, waiting for others to save them.
      If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

      The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

      Comment

      • fyrOM
        Banned
        • Feb 2010
        • 2180

        Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
        fyrOM,

        Addiction to subsidies is a communist disease that Macedonia needs to overcome. Its part of the larger slave mentality that makes them reliant on others. Meto Koloski has taken it to the extreme recently suggesting that Macedonians cannot protect their own culture and need others to do it for them. I don't see how EU subsidisation will help Macedonians build a competitive and productive economy - It'll lead to more of the same, waiting for others to save them.
        It depends on how it is used.

        If it's used resposibly, like seed money to kick start a small home-garage scale enterprise into a proper business by letting people upgrade/buy proper machinery, then it can be a good thing.

        You are right if it is continually used as a crutch out of a higher expectation than reality (ofcourse my apples should be worth $10- a killo, it affords me a wonderful lifestyle) and there in lies the trap with (ever increasing) subsidies because when the government tries to ween farmers off them they cry foul and remind the government they vote too, It's a risk. but without them the Macedonia agro-industry was mainly small scale and primitive to world standards with no fast way of pulling them up. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

        Comment

        • George S.
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2009
          • 10116

          F\\the eu is not so stupid if it looks after it's self interest it's not there to dole things out willy nilli at least to macedonia.After all the damage the other countries have done is really dragging the eu down.But to think in a grand way that macedonia is going to be treated by the eu is out of the question .By now the eu knows what every country is thinking that its wanting to spend more beyond it's means.That cannot go unchecked.
          Last edited by George S.; 05-14-2011, 01:35 AM. Reason: edit
          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
          GOTSE DELCEV

          Comment

          • Risto the Great
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 15658

            Originally posted by fyrOM View Post
            Many of the infrastructure, eg road ect projects, have been featured by other posters on the MTO, while I know, from reading newspapers, that other articles/items did not make it on the MTO - maybe they weren't considered news worthy enough? - and I don't have access to the Macedonian version of ASIC so compiling a list from back news article would be difficult, tedious, and time consuming, but the fact that some articles have hit the MTO in the past should suffice that something, rather than nothing, has been going on in terms of direct EU investment/grants/subsidies (eg rural)/cheap loans and indirect EU via Institutionalised private investors.

            If you have time to compile a list, or someone already has a list - great!

            Two that come to mind to start you off are the grants for the major transit highways and subsidies which transformed/modernised and picked up the rural sector which many Macedonians are involved in.
            Yeah, I am not sure about any of the vague assertions you make above. I can confirm the greatest amount of funding has come under the the titles of:
            - Transition Assistance and Institution Building
            - Regional Development

            With regard to Transition Assistance and Institution Building, I note the following point:


            Assistance should be provided on the basis of a comprehensive multi-annual strategy that reflects the priorities of the Stabilisation and Association Process, as well as the strategic priorities of the pre-accession process.
            The Stabilisation and Association Process includes a process of making agreements with the potential member country. Macedonia signed its agreement on 9.4.2001 and became law in June 2001. The terms parallel many of the agreements that are essential when joining the EU.

            The agreement is here

            Numerous vague points seem to exist in the above agreement but all favour the EU. Some points from the agreement:

            ARTICLE 17
            1. Customs duties on imports into the Community of products originating in the former Yugoslav
            Republic of Macedonia shall be abolished upon the entry into force of this Agreement.
            EU has had it duty free from Macedonia since 2001. Hmmm, something else happened in 2001 but I hate conspiracy theories.

            ARTICLE 32
            Standstill
            1. From the date of entry into force of this Agreement, no new customs duties on imports or exports or charges having equivalent effect shall be introduced, nor shall those already applied be increased, in trade between the Community and the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.
            Sovereignty already on the negotiating table in 2001 in tis regard.

            ARTICLE 48
            5(b) subsidiaries of Community companies shall also have the right to acquire and enjoy ownership rights over real property as the companies of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and as regards public goods/goods of common interest, including natural resources, agricultural land and forestry, the same rights as enjoyed by companies of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, where these rights are necessary for the conduct ofthe economic activities for which they are established;
            Macedonia is not allowed to make decisions in relation to who can buy its real property.

            ARTICLE 54
            While devising and applying such measures, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia shall grant preferential treatment wherever possible to Community companies and nationals, and in no case treatment less favourable than that accorded to companies or nationals from any third country.
            Community companies are EU companies. God forbid a Chinese or USA etc. company comes sniffing around. They are "third countries".

            ARTICLE 65
            1. The Parties shall endeavour wherever possible to avoid the imposition of restrictive measures, including measures relating to imports, for balance of payments purposes. A Party adopting such measures shall present as soon as possible to the other Party a timetable for their removal.
            2. Where one or more Member States or the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is in serious balance of payments difficulties, or under imminent threat thereof, the Community or the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, as the case may be, may, in accordance with the conditions established under the WTO Agreement, adopt restrictive measures, including measures relating to imports, which shall be of limited duration and may not go beyond what is strictly necessary to
            remedy the balance of payments situation. The Community or the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, as the case may be, shall inform the other Party forthwith.
            3. Any restrictive measures shall not apply to transfers related to investment and in particular to the repatriation of amounts invested or reinvested or any kind of revenues stemming therefrom.
            Put things on hold if things get bad but .... no matter what .... the money must flow! Who is more likely to win here?

            ARTICLE 69
            Competition and other economic provisions
            1. The following are incompatible with the proper functioning of the Agreement, insofar as they may affect trade between the Community and the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia:
            (i) all agreements between undertakings, decisions by associations of undertakings and concerted practices between undertakings which have as their object or effect the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition;
            Macedonia is simply not allowed to protect its industries. Already.

            ARTICLE 122
            This Agreement is concluded for an unlimited period.
            Either Party may denounce this Agreement by notifying the other Party. This Agreement shall cease to apply six months after the date of such notification.
            Food for thought. Though I suspect the European Investment Bank already has enough tentacles in Macedonia by now.


            It seems altruism is dead. In fact, Macedonia had already signed for compliance before it even received a cent.

            Note the funding is given to fulfill the strategic priorities of the EU.

            I won't say everything is bad. I will say that Macedonia already has obligations to the EU and reject the notion that it has received something for nothing from the EU.
            Risto the Great
            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

            Comment

            • Risto the Great
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 15658

              fyrOM, no comment from the anti-Macedonian on this? You said:

              [QUOTE-Bozo]As it stands, their investments are relying on a promise or intent and not entirely secure.[/QUOTE]I have confirmed agreements are already in place. Are you happy with the agreements already in place? Do you know how much of the grants and loans went to EU consultants? Do you know anything?
              Risto the Great
              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

              Comment

              • fyrOM
                Banned
                • Feb 2010
                • 2180

                Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                fyrOM, no comment from the anti-Macedonian on this? You said:

                [QUOTE-Bozo]As it stands, their investments are relying on a promise or intent and not entirely secure.
                I have confirmed agreements are already in place. Are you happy with the agreements already in place? Do you know how much of the grants and loans went to EU consultants? Do you know anything?[/QUOTE]

                RTG, lets say you were about to get married.
                If your future wife had busineses/investments as you also do.
                Bar a pre-nup, do you expect your finances will get mixed up or do you think everything will stay "what's mine is mine and what's yours is your."

                If you think the later, then you better have a solid air-tight pre-nup, although this is near useless in Australia, or you better think about being 'friends with benefits'.

                What do you think the EU is? Do one common union/currency/laws ect mean anything to you? or Macedonia will still be Totally Macedonia in every way?

                A bit like - "but look" - "so?"

                Comment

                • julie
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2009
                  • 3869

                  how can one use a marriage with sovereignty and extinction of a country as an example? The grkomani and dushmani to our people would love you fyrom
                  "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

                  Comment

                  • Risto the Great
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 15658

                    Originally posted by fyrOM View Post
                    RTG, lets say you were about to get married.
                    If your future wife had busineses/investments as you also do.
                    Bar a pre-nup, do you expect your finances will get mixed up or do you think everything will stay "what's mine is mine and what's yours is your."

                    If you think the later, then you better have a solid air-tight pre-nup, although this is near useless in Australia, or you better think about being 'friends with benefits'.

                    What do you think the EU is? Do one common union/currency/laws ect mean anything to you? or Macedonia will still be Totally Macedonia in every way?
                    Thanks Bozo.
                    I would have hoped what is Macedonian remains Macedonia's property. But your powerful insight fueled by way too many handkerchiefs between the ears has helped me understand that Macedonia will lose even more by being a member of EU.

                    Bozo, you should read the Kama Sutra. It says to never marry above or below your caste because there will always be problems. It also might teach you a couple of other things but I doubt you would ever learn more than one position.
                    Risto the Great
                    MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                    "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                    Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                    Comment

                    • Vangelovski
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 8531

                      Originally posted by julie View Post
                      how can one use a marriage with sovereignty and extinction of a country as an example? The grkomani and dushmani to our people would love you fyrom
                      You've probably already noticed from everyone mocking him, but fyrOM always uses irrelevant and nonsensical analogies.
                      If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                      The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                      Comment

                      • Currency Trader
                        Member
                        • Sep 2009
                        • 172

                        Originally posted by Rogi View Post
                        CT,

                        Given that the "EU standards and requirements" which you seem to hold on a pedestal, are the benchmarks that Macedonia's economy must meet in order to be ready for EU membership, what are the benefits, at that point, of joining the EU?

                        Benefits could be stronger FDI flows and more deeper integration of Macedonian companies with EU.

                        There is also the issue of being part of a European union with other countries instead of taking the path of isolation for a country of 2 million people. They've been islolated long enough, and the native Macedonian recognize that.

                        The EU standards on national institutions is part of the growth given that Macedonia run their institutions properly, which they should.




                        .

                        Comment

                        • Currency Trader
                          Member
                          • Sep 2009
                          • 172

                          Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
                          I was indicating that the countries that were doing well economically were already good before they went in. The ones that are rubbish now, were rubbish went they went in as well.
                          That depends on what you consider to be "doing well" economically before they became EU members. For example, Sweden did not do too well prior to joining EU. And even if there were countries who were structurally more sound than others, they joined EU for a reason.



                          .

                          Comment

                          • George S.
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2009
                            • 10116

                            isolation is not a factor when you consider the way macedonia is treated Macedonia should open up to other markets like chinaetc there are plenty of trading partners.Macedonia can make it's own way.It should do much better on it's own.Macedonia is nothing in the scheme of things in the eu it will simply be downtrodden.Macedonia's isolation for one is not it's fault it is the eu & greece together instead of helping they have turned to destroy macedonia.What makes you sure that once macedonia joins the eu the eu & specifically greece will stop at nothing to prevent them selves.I don't trust the eu or greece.It's not as rosy as you make it as there is a hidden agenda to destroy macedonia.
                            Macedonia when all is said & done does not need the eu to do well it can achieve it itself on it's own.
                            Also CT you dont mention once a country becomes a member the eu can come in & take the country's resources & give a pitance for them.You call that benefiting.There are a lot of countries wishing they never been part of the eu for that reason.What does macedonian offer the eu .Such a poor country has very little to offer .If they join the eu macedonia has a lot to lose ,they'll have very high unemployment not that it's low now.Hih inflation & other economic problems.
                            Last edited by George S.; 05-15-2011, 11:12 PM. Reason: edit
                            "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                            GOTSE DELCEV

                            Comment

                            • George S.
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2009
                              • 10116

                              Also ct if it's so important for countries to go into the eu why do they have to wait so long.Look at how many countries are waiting what's the holdup?I don't know whether the eu has kept their promisses that when the countries joined they would get a package.I don't know whether they got it but hungary is a fine example they were promissed 30 billion euros for joining.Did they Get it????
                              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                              GOTSE DELCEV

                              Comment

                              • Currency Trader
                                Member
                                • Sep 2009
                                • 172

                                One thing does stand out.

                                Certain sections of diaspora Macedonians (in-particular those who have jobs, money in the bank and live 8000-15000 km away from Macedonia) have different view or ideas of EU than native Macedonians.

                                Bottom line, an overwhelming majority of ALL central, northern and eastern European counties have joined EU in the last 25 years. They didn't join EU if they didn't think they were going to benefit. These countries are developing progressively, some with higher pace some with slower pace.

                                Turkey has already a strong economic structure from years of development with special trade agreements with EU, but even they wish to join. Obviously, there is something that they think will benefit them.


                                .

                                Comment

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