Macedonia and the European Union

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  • Dejan
    Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 589

    Why am I privileged to get a response from you? Why aren't you answering the hard questions?
    You want Macedonia? Come and take it from my blood!

    A prosperous, independent and free Macedonia for Macedonians will be the ultimate revenge to our enemies.

    Comment

    • Albo
      Member
      • May 2014
      • 304

      When the Macedonians voted for independence in 1991 the Albanians boycotted the vote.
      Yes this was done as no concensus or joint debate existed between the Macedonian and Albanian leaders on what the new RoM would look like.. everything was imposed from a pro Macedonian anti Albanian agenda..

      Many Albanian political analyst now say they should have boycotted the parliament and imposed new institutions which would have temporarily created a political crisis which would have brought both sides to the table and worked out a way where all were happy and we wouldn't have had any need today for an Ohrid Agreement and 2001 would have been avoided...

      Look as Kosovo 5% Serb population have paralysed the country from moving forward and Prishtina authorities have next to nothing control north of Mitrovica in serb dominant regions.. imagine what 25% could have done with some form of civil disobedience forcing peaceful negotiations...

      Many of todays problems exist due to them not being sorted out in 91'


      In 2007 in Operation Mountain Storm - Albanian terrorists were arrested/killed [/QUOTE]

      This was politically motivated with more questions than answers.. after this occurred the short lived DPA - VMRO coalition was over.

      In 2009 and 2013 Albanian mayors were voted in Struga and Kicevo for the first time. The new mayors fired a good proportion of the Macedonian civil workers and put Albanians in their positions.
      Today we have more Macedonians represented in Struga and Kicevo under Albanian mayors than Albanians ever were under Macedonian mayors..


      In 2011 the census was cancelled because Albanians tried to inflate their numbers for more rights
      VMRO Was the party that cancelled the results.. even though 85% of the money allocated to the census were spent.. zero results were made public..

      in 2012 5 Macedonians were killed before Easter at Lake Smilkovci. These Macedonians didn't do anything to the Albanians.
      No real proof has been made public that Albanians had anything to do with this... the truth of all this will be known when all the phone recordings will be released..

      In 2014 in Diva Naselba 8 Macedonian policemen were killed by Albanian terrorists.
      This was also a staged event by the secret service.. this all happened when the Bomba recordings were released to divert public attention. .. again also the truth for all this will come out very soon.. Stojace Angelovski announced an event occurring 2 weeks prior to it happening.. "saying 2 million euros have been paid to destabilize the country.." see below



      In 2017 The Albanians got together in a foreign country and developed a "Tirana Platform" as the first step towards federalization of the country (don't bullshit us we all know what this is).
      How is it a Tirana Platform?
      What is in the platform that was added by Tirana that wasn't part of the platforms of the elected Albanian parties?
      What part of the platform says anything about federalization or any form or territorial division?

      On a TV debate a saw recently a panelists said a survey was done amongst the protesters about the Albanian party Decleration that 80% hadn't even read the full document!
      Vmro is using it as fear mongering to the masses by repeating the words "Tirana" and "Federalization" over and over and over again...


      Finally since the actual percentage of people doesn't matter in your opinion (ie all languages should be official irrespective of the actual percentage that use it) do you believe the small minority of Macedonians in Albania should have Macedonian as an official language in Albania? If not then why?
      If the Macedonians in Albania had the same political presence as the Albanians do in Macedonia and were such a factor historically, economically, politically and were also a stabilizing factor then yes ..I'd have no problem with it.. because that would be a true reflection of the society in which made up Albania.. and wouldn't effect me using Albanian or being Albanian in any shape or form...

      Comment

      • Tomche Makedonche
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2011
        • 1123

        Originally posted by Gocka View Post
        I liked the long and thoughtful comment and I think you are right about most of it. I guess the discussion is really about the level of urgency rather than the state of affairs or even desired outcomes.

        I will just point out one thing. We have brought up Delcev a lot and I again have to just one more time. If you go back to his time, especially while there was intense debate about whether Macedonians should start the rebellion or not. Now we all know it was a mistake that they rebelled when they did, but what is relevant today is why they rebelled when they did. Now there was certainly a devious element of Bulgarians who knew it would fail and they wanted them to fail, but there was also a naive Macedonian faction that also felt a sense of urgency as you do today. They believed it was either right now or Macedonia would never break free from the Turks. We know that the premature rebellion was crushed and Macedonia's chances at being a free went with it. We are still paying the price today for rushing into the rebellion. That defeat set us back much further than our neighbors who capitalized on that and partitioned us. It also kept us from forming a strong nationality because we had no nation to build it upon. That one mistake nearly erased us from history.

        I know you feel urgency, so do I, you've seen some of the comments I've made about ROM and its citizens, I've never pulled any punches. That's pure emotion, that's because we do care even if we want to tell ourselves that we don't. If we put our emotions aside though, and really look at the situation critically and logically, I think you will also conclude that rushing is again a mistake.
        The lesson to be learnt from Ilinden is not patience, but how critical knowing the right time to act is in achieving your desired results. Back then they got it wrong by rushing it. Today I would argue we have got it wrong by delaying it for 16 years, and now you want to keep on delaying even when a rare opportunity has presented itself. When exactly do you think RoMacedonians should act if they want to keep their nation state?, oh wait you explain when in your following paragraph.

        Originally posted by Gocka View Post
        Let me explain why. Lets say Macedonians unite superficially just to fend of the Tirana platform, what then, the way I see it only one of two things will happen. Either the Albanians pick up their guns again because they are dug in too deep and too publicly now to turn back or it crushes SDS's mandate and we head back to elections which DPMNE will win. If there is an open conflict with Albanians I guarantee you that we are not ready for that, and much like 2001 we will roll over and give them more then they wanted in the first place. If DPMNE win another election in these circumstances and with the current leadership they will only further dig in their tentacles and then what? DPMNE has caused more harm than anyone to Macedonia, they are the one who brought on the divisiveness and the Albanization. If they come to power it will tear Macedonia apart anyway.
        So basically you’re saying RoMacedonians can’t win, that Albanians will win no matter what, hence RoMacedonians should just accept the Tirana platform and roll over. So your answer to my above question is essentially never.

        Furthermore I find it funny how you imply that by replacing the corruptive cancer that is DPNE with SDS will somehow cure Macedonia of corruption, as though SDS doesn’t carry with it the same corruptive cancer that DPNE does. Everyone knows as soon as they get into power they will sack all DPNE affiliated employees and replace them with SDS affiliated employees and then further DPNE’s work by digging in their own tentacles. The state will remain captured by the political elite either way, all that will change is the captor. If you honestly think otherwise then you are deluding yourself.

        Originally posted by Gocka View Post
        I will also use an analogy but a simple one, you are focusing on the symptoms not the disease. All the idiotic things Macedonians do and allow to happen, are not the problem, they are the symptoms. The disease in their heads and hearts. They need to want it, they need to be willing to die for it. We are in 6th gear, they are in neutral. Any actions they undertake under this mental state, will only cause more harm. You want them to take actions without them fully understanding why they should take them or what they want the outcome to be, and why they should desire a certain outcome. No nation can survive by proxy.
        I find it quite hypocritical that you and Vicsinad accuse me of insulting RoMacedonians yet you two go around talking as if they are some kind of retarded 1st graders, with diseases in their heads who need to be pampered and spoken to and defended like children. I personally find that approach more of an insult and disrespectful then treating them as what they are, intellectual, independent adults which is exactly what I consider most RoMacedonians to be, hence why I treat them as grown up’s and be straight and truthful with them about my opinions. I’m not telling them what to do, they are going to whatever they are going to do, all I’m doing is expressing my opinion on the likely results of their choices, what they mean, and how they are ultimately accountable for them. The choice of how they go forward is as always theirs and theirs alone. Just like taking my opinion into account or ignoring it is theirs and theirs alone.

        Originally posted by Gocka View Post
        Having said all that I want to address your comment below. I think you misunderstood us. Its not that you should butt out and shut up. Not even the slightest. We should help, we should support, but certain demands and suggestions should be avoided unless you are willing to go and lead the charge. Come on we are all grown ups, how many of us knowing many of the ego's around here, how many of us would tolerate someone thousands of miles away in comfort and safety telling us we need to die for a cause we don't understand? Sometimes you have to step back and try to empathize.
        Yeah you can spin it whichever way you want, but that is essentially what you’re saying, that people who aren’t there should just shut up and support their decisions. What’s even worse is the fact that your argument about “diaspora members being prepared to go there and lead” shows your detachment from the reality of the position the diaspora occupies in our only nation state. The truth is any diaspora member’s attempt to join in or lead will be as successful as Che’s mission in Bolivia was. Whether you realise it or not, RoMacedonians don’t like us, they don’t want us, and to be brutally honest, the majority don’t even consider us Macedonians. Since the days of Yugoslavia, the political class has purposefully promoted a policy of isolationism for the pursuit of their own corruptive purposes which has become so successfully ingrained in the average RoMacedonians psyche that it is now a cultural aspect of their nation. Doesn’t matter if Macedonians from Greek, Bulgarian, and Albanian occupied territories, or the Diaspora go over there and shoot Zajko and Grujo in the face, they’ll all still be considered nothing but Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians and Americans/Australians/Canadians/Stransi and unless you’re handing out money, you’re likely to get as much attention for your efforts as a gypsy would on a Sunday night in Bitola. The notion of Brotherhood has been completely eroded (in fact it never really was given or had the chance to develop) and has been replaced with what has become the prevailing foundational stone for our people: the needs of the individual will take priority over the needs of the family. This is one of the fundamental reasons why the entire Macedonian situation exists.

        Furthermore, who is telling people that they have to die? I never knew RoMacedonians were being gunned down for voicing their concerns, or walking the streets these days, I must have missed that development, things must have turned for the worse if that’s what happening there now…

        Originally posted by Gocka View Post
        Also Delcev called Macedonians sheep in private conversations, he didn't go village to village and while trying to enlighten and recruit, call people sheep. He was speaking to people who were already enlightened, expressing frustration and being realistic about what was the current state of affairs.
        So if I PM you and call you a donkey, or rather PM Vic and refer to you as a donkey, then that’s OK?, why?, cause I didn’t insult you publicly?, perhaps the PM means I didn’t insult you at all?, regardless, I’ll tell you the same thing I told Vic, stop trying to use our revered revolutionaries in examples to prove your points. They lived in a different time and are dead. Unless you personally know them, or they talk to you from the grave telling you their personal opinions of the current situation, you have no authority to pretend you speak on their behalf.

        Originally posted by Gocka View Post
        You shouldn't give up but rather ask yourself, would you put your faith in the words of some Kangaroo or Yankee, making anonymous comments and a vague internet forum?
        I don’t know how you work, but in general no one can tell anyone what to do, what someone does is their choice and theirs alone. Furthermore I judge people’s comments on their reasoning, logic and merit alone, not by the class or location of the person talking. Ive heard some really stupid things come out of the mouths of supposed intellectuals, and heard some of the most intellectual words of wisdom come out of the mouths of illiterate peasants. The words that make the most sense to me personally are the ones that subconsciously will have an effect on the way I perceive matters and my decision making, irrespective of where they came from, or from whom.  
        “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

        Comment

        • Tomche Makedonche
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2011
          • 1123

          Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
          What we have today in Macedonia is something like this, according to my interpretation of what you’re saying:
          Let me correct that for you since your own agenda seems to be clouding what has actually been said :

          Group A
          Did you vote for SDS? Yes.
          Do you support the Tirana platform? No.
          Have you voiced your opposition by protesting the Tirana platform: Yes
          Conclusion: you don’t support the Tirana Platform
          OR
          Have you voiced your opposition by protesting the Tirana platform: no
          Conclusion: Your inaction supports the implementation of the Tirana Platform

          Group B
          Did you vote for DPNE? Yes.
          Do you support the Tirana platform? No.
          Have you voiced your opposition by protesting the Tirana platform: Yes
          Conclusion: you don’t support the Tirana Platform
          OR
          Have you voiced your opposition by protesting the Tirana platform: no
          Conclusion: Your inaction supports the implementation of the Tirana Platform

          Group C
          For a non-supporter of DPNE and SDS; did you vote for DPNE or SDS?, No.
          Do you support the Tirana Platform?. No.
          Have you voiced your opposition by protesting the Tirana platform: Yes
          Conclusion: you don’t support the Tirana Platform
          OR
          Have you voiced your opposition by protesting the Tirana platform: no
          Conclusion: Your inaction supports the implementation of the Tirana Platform

          Notice the consistency?

          As I stated before, the reason why SDS stands out in this particular instance is because that is the particular party who is currently going ahead with implementing the Tirana Platform and realistically, it is their own party members, officials and supporters that would be the only ones able to stop that. If protests from Group B or Group C were enough, then there would be no further pressure on Group A (SDS supporters) in this instance. In fact to be honest, Group A could also not be enough to steer Zakjo and the leadership from their intended course of action, however, if anyone has a realistic chance, the most probable would be them.

          Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
          The Tirana Platform is your rallying cry. You are using that platform as the bar. But the platform is nothing but a political manifestation of Albanianization. If you used Albanianization as the bar, your analysis has to change because both SDS and DPNE leaders’ actions, not words, have demonstrated either a lack of courage on the Albanianization issue or a submission to it. You may be intending to use the Tirana platform as a rallying and unifying cry, but the facts demonstrate that the Tirana Platform in and of itself cannot be used in this sense because of both the political context and the greater social and local conditions on the ground. The Tirana platform is just an effect, or symptom, of the Albanianization.
          This logic is absurd. What exactly are you saying?, that opposition to the Tirana platform can’t be used as a unifying cry, but Albanisation can?, that is so long as it isn’t politically motivated?, or come in the form of a political manifestation?, how can Albanisation not be politically motivated?, how can Albanisation be removed from a political context?, does the implementation of the Tirana platform not constitute the further Albanisation of the country?, this is nothing but semantics and you know it.

          For 16 years both parties have been aiding Albanians in their agenda, and RoMacedonians have sat idle. When was the last time you saw Macedonians capitalise on the opportunity to go out in mass demonstrations against the Albanisation of the country?, cause its happening now, we have an official platform forged in Tirana with the aid of the Albanian Prime Minister and officials from Kosovo (who through this action are the actual ones responsible for politically manifesting a platform for the Albanisation of RoM), which if implemented (and indeed it is intended to be implemented, still currently by SDS), will hammer the last nail in the coffin and make the binational state finally official. If not now, when exactly do you think Macedonians need to act if they want to put a halt to the Albanisation of the country?, after the implementation of the Tirana platform?, when Albanian is official throughout the entire country?. From my experience, it is much harder to rescind a matter after its implementation, then to halt it from being implemented.

          The whole point of Macedonians uniting against its implementation is about transcending the political context of the matter, to steal the movement away from DPNE or SDS, so that both parties will be accountable to a unified Macedonian populace for their future actions in relation to this matter or any further Albanisation of their country. I mean these calls for a “third unified option” realistically have no chance of forming unless people from all sides of the coin transcend party politics and make the effort to stand together so that they can commence a dialogue between one another, and historically negative association provides the opportunity to facilitate such unions.

          It seems that you think party politics / political principles are more of a priority then halting the implementation of the Tirana platform, and you’re even using semantics regarding the title of the unifying cry to justify it.

          Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
          I’ll give you an example. Both my wife and I have family here and there that is relatively evenly split between SDS and DPNE. We come from an area that is one of the last Macedonian enclaves left in the Polog region, surrounded by Albanians. They do not like the Albanianization more than most Macedonians and they are feeling the effects of it more than most. Yet, many of these people do not support the protests because they do not trust DPNE and instead view these protests as DPNE controlled and inspired. Why did they turn to SDS and still support them over DPNE? Because DPNE has let them down several times. More recently in my father’s village DPNE was going to sell the rights to build a hydro dam on a river in the village to an Albanian company. How do the Macedonians view Grujo’s and DPNE’s actions versus what their current words are? Well, their actions were to sell the rights to their villages’ resources to some Albanians, which to the villagers was an affront on the Albanianization aspect, the corruption aspect, and the environmental aspect.

          You can repeat this over thousands of times throughout Macedonia from village to village, whether their negative attitudes are toward SDS or DPMNE. The people mostly side with a party depending on who has wronged them the most, or who they view as wronging them the most, and then they align with the biggest party that will defeat those who have wronged them the most. And while you are not saying that rallying against the Tirana Platform is a ‘party thing’, I’m telling you that it can only be perceived as a ‘party thing’ because of the politics of the whole situation. The fact remains that this is indeed a political situation and you cannot practically use the Tirana platform to unite the Macedonians because it has been hijacked. You can still use Albanianization in general, especially if you address Macedonia’s problems holistically, but the Tirana Platform is nothing but a political tool used by both DPNE and DUI in order to get new elections. If this is not true, then it is at least how it is viewed by many and that is the political reality which has to be accounted for.
          You do realise that all you have done there is re-enforce my point about Macedonians prioritising other matters, whether it be hate, political principles, stubbornness, financial gain, values, image etc, over transcending political barriers for the unity of their nation to fight the implementation of an official binational state sponsored by a foreign adversary. Perhaps your issue lies with understanding what priority means, or what it means to prioritise (I personally don’t think it is but just in case), here let me help you with that:

          Prioritize
          [prahy-awr-i-tahyz, -or-] /praɪˈɔr ɪˌtaɪz, -ˈɒr-/ verb (used with object), prioritized, prioritizing.
          1. to arrange or do in order of priority: learning to prioritize our assignments.
          2. to give a high priority to. verb (used without object), prioritized, prioritizing.
          3. to organize or deal with something according to its priority.

          Prioritize
          /praɪˈɒrɪˌtaɪz/ verb (transitive)
          1. to arrange (items to be attended to) in order of their relative importance
          2. to give priority to or establish as a priority



          Prioritise

          1. designate or treat (something) as being very or most important. "the department has failed to prioritize safety within the oil industry"

          2. determine the order for dealing with (a series of items or tasks) according to their relative importance. "age affects the way people prioritize their goals"



          Prioritize

          1. To decide which of a group of things are the most important so you can deal with them first




          Basically, what seems to be the opinion is that it is more of a priority to prevent the slightest chance of aiding Grujo possibly going back into power (since he is responsible for the significant Albanisation of the country), then to stop Zajko (whose party has also been responsible for the significant Albanisation of the country) making Albanian become official throughout the entire country today.

          What exactly is your family prioritising with this?, their love for their nation by transcending party politics to unite (even potentially with supporters of the people they politically despised) against a common threat: Albanisation; OR their hate for DPNE based on historical precedent and political principles at the cost of their nations sovereignty and national character. The answer is easy even for a 5th grader, but the real issue behind your resistance to this fact lies within a different aspect altogether which I’ll address below.

          What is worrying is that you appear to be saying the political context surrounding the Tirana platform means Macedonians shouldn’t unite to try and stop it being implemented, essentially just forget about it and let it go.

          Tell me something, if DPNE supporters didn’t start protesting against it, what would your view be for RoMacedonians just agreeing to the terms of the Tirana platform and shaking hands and implementing it with a big smile?, would you have any frustrations or negatives to say about RoMacedonains staying at home and allowing whichever party to agree to it wholeheartedly?. Would you support and defend their stance of staying at home and not protesting it?, I’m interested to know your answer since you clearly stated before that you consider it anti-Macedonian and in fact treasonous

          Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
          So then what does saying “half of Macedonians support the Tirana Platform and a bi-national state because they remain silent” accomplish? Absolutely nothing.
          It notifies them of their accountability for its possible implementation. From a personal view point, hopefully it pisses them off, forcing them to deliberate their priorities at some stage afterwards. Does it do nothing?, possibly, but not saying it does absolutely nothing either so… What exactly do you think we should say?, Oh right, you already told me that, you think we should just shut up and offer support for their decisions. What kind of support are you going to offer RoMacedonians when the Tirana platform is implemented?, copies of “learn how to speak Albanian” books?, maybe some links to online tutorials of how to speak Albanian?, well you’re in luck since I’ve already provided those links to you previously in our discussion.

          Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
          And to tie this in with what Gocka said and how I responded, no one is saying you can’t have an opinion. That was not the point of either of our posts.
          And you accuse me of minimalizing and backtracking on comments

          Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
          With big opinions and accusations comes great responsibility.
          Yes I’ve heard of Spiderman too. Nice take on that line. Pity you don’t apply that philosophy universally or equally to all members of the forum.
          “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

          Comment

          • Tomche Makedonche
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2011
            • 1123

            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
            It is easy to say heavy and damning things like this behind the relative anonymity and safety of a web forum thousands of miles away. Undoubtedly, it is our right and freedom to be able to speak openly and honestly. But what is the value of someone from afar damning a whole segment of our own people into one category while not experiencing what they experience, while not backing those words by getting dirty and instead expecting and hoping for others to get dirty instead?
            The value is providing them an unbiased third hand account of the options that lay in front of them and the repercussions of how they choose to move forward, as well as the perception of those choices, in order to assist with their decision making as ultimately, in this instance, they are the ones who will live with the responsibility of their actions, not me. Whatever effects that transfer onto me from those decisions will be left up to me on how I decide to react or move forward. What they choose is up to them. I’m not telling them which way to choose (obviously I have an opinion if one is to consider the sovereignty of their country as a priority), however I’m only offering options, pointing out that in this specific circumstance, if they are against the Tirana platform, these are the possible choices in front of them and these are the repercussions of those choices. Whatever their deliberations, they’re choice defines what their priorities are.

            But as I mentioned earlier, whether or not you understand what it means to “prioritise”, I don’t think my statements of fact and how they translate to priorities are actually the aspect that is rubbing you the wrong way. I think the true issue is that you equate my statement of facts as somehow incorporating judgement. It’s the same issue that some members here have come across when discussing topics like religion. There is no judgement in my statements, you may argue it’s implied in the manner I convey my arguments (and I’m sure you will), but the truth is the only judgement that comes from my statements are those that you bring with you. I’m stating facts regarding the outcome of decisions. You don’t like that because it places personal values into conflict. A person may be a patriot, and against the Tirana Platform, but preferring to allow its implementation over, say, possibly aiding DPNE’s agenda which could result in them getting into power defines what their priorities are, whether they like them or not. That is a fact. No where am I saying they are wrong to make the choice they do. I have no authority to judge anyone on their actions. Whatever reasons they have behind it I’m sure it can be argued that they are more than justified. But that still doesn’t change the fact of what they are prioritising, or the repercussions of that choice. If you have an issue of that fact, then that’s something you need to sort out with yourself, just as I and everyone else have to deliberate the choices of our own priorities and their repercussions. It’s what responsibility is about, something that adults have to deal with. No one likes it when their values are brought head to head with each other and a choice needs to be made about what they prioritise more, but unless time stops, a choice will be made, and choosing not to make a choice is still a choice that bears accountability and has repercussions, and while it may not be fair to point out the choice of their priorities, it doesn’t change the fact of what their priorities are.

            Regardless, I really don’t understand why you’re getting your knickers in a knot about me saying “half of Macedonians are going along with the implementation of the Tirana Platform” anyway, after all, this is just a vague internet forum which falls onto the ears of a limited circle of Diaspora Macedonians. Besides if any RoMacedonians come across it and have an issue, they can do likewise and get on here anonymously, from the safety of their own computer thousands of miles away, and karaj majka shajka with us diaspora Macedonian cowards, you know, the kind of Macedonians Goce Delchev despised.

            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
            This is what Delchev meant. No one thinks of him like a Ghandi. But most of those things he said were in private or to a limited group of people. He was always distraught after Macedonians fought with one another, it literally made him sick. He preferred heart-to-heart conversations that united Macedonians not tore them apart.

            There’s a story of him and his fellow VMRO leaders where after Gruev and Toshev were arguing viciously about a matter, Delchev could no longer handle their bitter words and animosity toward one another. Tears were streaming down his face. He pulled out his gun and told them that they should kill each other if they were going to continuing attacking each other because he couldn’t handle it anymore. When they refused, he put the gun to his head and fired a shot, but it hit the ceiling because another Macedonian tackled him. Delchev would have rather killed himself than be a front-row witness to Macedonians destroying each other. Good thing he left this earth heroically before he saw the real fracturing of the Macedonian people, because it would have torn him into pieces. That’s the kind of Macedonian he was, and that’s the kind of Macedonian we all should strive to be to a certain degree.

            The other aspect of it was that Delchev didn’t believe that if you weren’t getting your hands dirty in Macedonia, your role should be limited to support for Macedonians, not as an individual who tries to dictate the course or meddles in how the internal operations work.
            Here we go, the authority on Delchev is at it again, telling us diaspora Macedonian cowards what a dead man thought, man you have some nerve on you to talk on his behalf and use him to justify your own agenda, I guess you think you’re walking in his footsteps right now don’t you? Vicsinad – Defender of Macedonians - Goce Delchev reincarnate.

            While you’re at it, tell me what would Aleksandar III think of this situation?, how about his father Filip II?, or Kiril i Metodij?, Oh and don’t forget Tsari Samoil, or Chento, what would their thoughts be on this situation?, what are they telling you from the grave?, and more importantly, whose thoughts should we value more?, whose advice should we prioritise?

            Again, I will pose the same question I posed to Gocka if I PM you, or rather PM Gocka and call you a donkey, then I assume it’s OK?, because I didn’t insult you publicly?, or is it because it means I didn’t insult you at all?, I say that half of Macedonians are already going along with Zajko and the Tirana platform (which is a statement of fact) and I’m the devil, but Gocka frequently calls RoMacedonians Cowards, Traitors, describes them as people with diseases in their heads and that’s all fine with you, maybe you think his insults were done privately?

            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
            If I’m not getting dirty in Macedonia to push my claims, then I am not going to contribute to any of the fracturing or agitation from afar. Our efforts are better directed elsewhere. There is a real world out there and our perception and approach on the issue in Macedonia from here is incomplete at best. The best we can do is be advocates of the Macedonian Cause here and give support to Macedonians there if they want it or need it.
            Yes I get it Vic, stop being the cowards that Goce Delchev despised, just shut up and leave RoMacedonians to their own devices and offer them support, I got that loud and clear. Again refer to my earlier posts in our discussion for those links to learning Albanian which can assist you in your efforts to support RoMacedonians.
            “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

            Comment

            • Tomche Makedonche
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2011
              • 1123

              Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
              I'll bring up whoever I want to bring up in order to peddle whatever I want to peddle. But if you give me a bike, then I'll pedal that, too.
              Yeah I get it Vic, it’s OK for you to say whatever you want, however you want, but it’s not OK for others to do that if you don’t agree with what they say. After all, you are the Defender of Macedonians - Goce Delchev reincarnate – who other than you can be the authority on what is OK to say and who can say it.
              Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
              So you can't have this discussion without taking it super personally, huh? You're completely misinterpreting what was said, as addressed in Gocka's post and my previous post. I simply contested how you're coming to a conclusion and then suggested that living afar leaves us removed from the effects or consequences of what goes on there and that there are some things we say and advocate for, and how we say them and advocate for them, that should require special consideration, being that we are not there. You don't have to agree with it, but don't take it too personally.
              Well I can’t help it, I’m sensitive like all those supposedly poor retarded first graders with diseases in their heads that you and Gocka are tasked to defend against the kind of diaspora cowards that Goce Delchev despised. Again, it’s a pity you don’t apply that philosophy universally or equally to all members of the forum, but yeah your right, living a far leaves us removed from the effects and consequences of what goes on there, that’s why I’ve never had to explain why Macedonia is referred to as FYROM, that’s why I’ve never had to explain why the Macedonian flag I wave is not the same as the one RoMacedonians wave… do you know what, I should just shut up and butt out because I’m being the type of Macedonian coward that Goce Delchev despised.

              Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
              It's an unfair and an inaccurate assessment. It has absolutely nothing to do with absolutes (I philosophically believe absolute morality doesn't exist, which is something different). And quite the contrary, attacking Macedonians because of a categorization that is unfair and inaccurate is what promotes political principles, stubbornness and hate over a solution; further, attacking their supposed inaction based on the standard you have set ignores a multitude of complexities and is unproductive.
              It’s not to a standard that I have set, it’s to a standard that will lead to the desired result. If SDS supporters remaining silent or whispering internally resulted in Zajko dropping the Tirana platform, then obviously that’s the standard that would be needed. You’re saying that’s possibly happening right now, but Zajko hasn’t changed his intended course of action, clearly that isn’t the standard that will produce the desired result. Therefore if they actually want to stop the implementation of the Tirana Platform, they need to escalate their actions to a standard that will produce the desired result. That is if they actually are against the implementation of the Tirana Platform and consider it a priority over other matters.
              Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
              The burden falls on both parties and supporters because the issue really is not the Tirana Platform but Albanianization in general. The DPNE has had years -- years -- to do something about it. In respect to Albanization in all it forms, both parties can be said to be working toward the detriment of the Macedonian people, and thus the burden falls on both parties.
              Semantics again, but yes you are correct in your historical analysis, but people can do little about what happened in the past, the only thing they can do anything about is what happens today. Today, currently DPNE have hypocritically created a “Civil” movement protesting against it. SDS is not only not opposing it, but planning on implementing it. Who is not doing their part today?, I mean you do realise that if SDS did not agree to the platform, DPNE could not have hypocritically capitalised on the situation and “hijacked” a possible anti-Albanisation movement right?, or is that fact something you remain purposely oblivious to?
              Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
              Saying that this could be the last opportunity could be right, or it could be wrong. Perhaps the last opportunity may have already passed, or maybe it's light years away. But if it is the last opportunity for Macedonians to stand up against Albanization, I find it even more peculiar that you would be so quick to judge half of Macedonians as being supportive of the Tirana Platform, and be vocally adamant about it, when in reality it is painfully obvious that the politics of the situation regarding the Tirana Platform will prevent Macedonians unifying under this guise.
              Again I’m not judging, I’m stating a fact based on the repercussions of their current action or inaction and notifying them of their accountability for it. You’re defending the reasons for that action or inaction, knowing full well the repercussions.

              The intent behind my actions, whether fair or unfair, is to hopefully force (who ever might come across it) a deliberation of their priorities if they really wish to oppose the implementation of the Tirana Platform (or rather the further Albanisation of their country) whilst being aware of their accountability for their choice.

              The intent behind your actions (although derived from your love of your people and natural inclination to protect and defend RoMacedonians) is unfortunately to vindicate their sense of unaccountability based on the justifications of their priorities which consequently could allow the Tirana Platform to be implemented.

              Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
              Something else is needed, something that counters both Albanianization as well as the social ills that plague government and society, and something that is just as directed at the Macedonian parties' leaders as it is against Albania and ethnic Albanians in Macedonia.
              So what do you propose? (I’m actually yet to hear any alternate suggestions from you throughout this discussion), oh yeah we shouldn’t propose anything cause that would make us the kind of Macedonians Delchev despised, we should only offer support and keep our noses in our own neck of the woods.

              Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
              I understand your logic and your points, for the most part. But I don't understand how you think this is the only way to go about trying to address the situation, and I certainly don't understand how you think this could produce results in even a short time, given the entire political context. You want the Macedonians to drop the political context behind it all for the time being, but that's a virtual impossibility because the political context exists. You have to account for that in any solution, because in the current state of things, that is not changing. It's there and it must be factored.
              I don’t want them to do anything. They are free to do what they want. If they want to speak Albanian, let them. If they want to prioritise hate over love. Let them. If they want to continue to prioritise the individual above the family, let them. As they make their choices, I will make mine. I’m just laying out the consequences of their choices and how they will be accountable for it. People like you will continue to defend them regardless of the repercussions of the choices they make.

              Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
              This just shows me a few things I assumed already: Most Macedonians, even those who support SDS, don't support the Tirana platform; DPNE is simply using the platform and protests to gain votes at another election; and SDS doesn't want to risk going to the polls so that both the DUI and DPNE don't get more votes and don't get back in power.

              The Tirana Platform cannot be used a unifying cry. Instead, it is being used -- and will continued to be used -- to drum up more support for DPNE.
              Again, what is worrying is that you appear to be implying that Macedonians should remain divided and let the Tirana platform be implemented, due to the political context of the situation.
              “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

              Comment

              • Bill77
                Senior Member
                • Oct 2009
                • 4545

                EU In 2016 on Macedonian elections "VMRO cannot organise elections without SDSM"........




                EU in 2017 on Albanian elections
                we are in a situation where the electoral process for the general elections on 18 June has been set*in motion.*The elections*will*take place without the participation of the main opposition parties........

                It was the deliberate choice by the current opposition not to run for elections.......
                the democratic process must continue, even if some decide to stay behind.
                Democracy and democratic standards shall not be*held back*by boycotting institutions and democratic elections........

                https://europeanwesternbalkans.com/2...-18-elections/
                http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                Comment

                • Albo
                  Member
                  • May 2014
                  • 304

                  Bit of a different situation

                  Albania: How not to lose an election? Refuse to take part…

                  All eyes are on elections in Britain, France and soon Germany but quite the most bizarre election seen in Europe since the end of communism is due to take ten days after the British poll next month, writes Denis MacShane.

                  Comment

                  • Tomche Makedonche
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2011
                    • 1123

                    Most EU hopefuls might not be ready to join before 2050, study finds

                    A new study looking into the practical, legal and technical aspects of further EU expansion has concluded that only one country, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, could meet the criteria for joining the bloc before 2023.


                    Most EU hopefuls might not be ready to join before 2050, study finds

                    A new study looking into the practical, legal and technical aspects of further EU expansion has concluded that only one country, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, could meet the criteria for joining the bloc before 2023.

                    Serbia, currently touted as the frontrunner together with the tiny coastal republic of Montenegro, would only manage to fully comply with EU law in the mid-2030s, and the same goes for Turkey, according to the Forecasting Candidate Status study, written by Professor Tina Freyburg of the University of St Gallen and Tobias Böhmelt from the University of Essex.

                    Further enlargement of the EU during the 2014-2019 mandate of Jean-Claude Juncker’s Commission has been ruled out but the question of who might join the bloc next remains an interesting debate, even though there is little real appetite for bloc’s further expansion.

                    The list of countries still vying for EU membership includes official candidates Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, and Turkey, and EU hopefuls Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo.

                    The study has considered how likely it is that five of those candidate countries would join the EU before 2050, based on previous accession benchmarks used during the 2004 big-bang enlargement.

                    EU accession is only possible when candidate countries meet a comprehensive list of criteria and when they have implemented EU law, known as the acquis, into their own national legislation. This includes everything from judicial reform to transport and energy policy.

                    The study said Macedonia is the only country likely to meet the benchmarks before 2023, while Serbia and Turkey would only manage to fully comply with EU law in the mid-2030s.

                    Turkey’s continued membership bid is the most controversial, particularly in light of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s crackdown on opposition forces following the failed coup attempt last year.

                    Member states and European lawmakers have made high-profile calls on the EU to suspend or even scrap Turkey’s bid, which Ankara formally launched in 1987.

                    The situation is made significantly more delicate by Brussels’ reliance on Ankara to enforce the refugee deal, which, in addition to factors like Brexit and rising populism, means the appetite for EU expansion has, arguably, never been lower.

                    Albania and Bosnia-Herzegovina might not be in a position to meet the criteria on EU accession before 2050, which the study uses as evidence to show that political ambitions in those countries might outweigh the reality of the situation.

                    Professor Freyburg emphasises that her work completely excludes the political dimension of the issue, including the European Commission’s moratorium on enlargement, instability in Turkey and the political uncertainty in countries like Bosnia, or the fact that Macedonia’s progress is blocked by Greece because of a 20-year old name dispute.

                    The study did not include Kosovo or Montenegro in its predictions, saying there is a lack of sufficient data to make a worthwhile estimate of accession prospects for either country. Additionally, Kosovo is still not recognised by five EU member states so its membership is currently a moot point.

                    However, Freyburg told EURACTIV.com that Montenegro, which only became independent from Serbia in 2006, “possesses characteristics comparable to Macedonia, which might make their future levels of compliance with EU law comparable as well”.

                    Montenegro’s prospects of successful accession are often hailed in Brussels as the most promising. Although some factors like a border dispute with Kosovo continue, its barriers to EU membership are less significant than other candidates.

                    Freyburg added that “Montenegro might reasonably be seen as being among the first potential next member states” but warned that the political willingness of the Montenegrin government and vetoes by other member states are outside the control of the study.

                    It concluded that the results appear to lower EU enlargement expectations and that the findings might even “paint a ‘too optimistic’ picture and the actual future compliance levels […] could well be even weaker than suggested”.

                    The study also highlighted that enlargement is most often driven by candidate country action and progress, rather than an “expansionist” Brussels policy. It added that EU concerns about increased membership jeopardising a “deepening of the European institutions” are non-technical barriers that prospective members must contend with.

                    The latest addition to the EU is Croatia, which formally joined the bloc in 2013. It is yet to join Schengen or the eurozone but in his 2017 State of the Union address, Jean-Claude Juncker called on Croatia to be admitted to the former as soon as it meets all the relevant criteria.

                    Last week, Croatian Prime Minister Andrej Plenković announced that he is hopeful his country will join the eurozone within seven to eight years time.
                    “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                    Comment

                    • mklion
                      Member
                      • Jun 2014
                      • 100

                      The reality is the EU doesn't want the majority of the Balkan countries to join the EU. In Macedonia's case Greece is just doing the dirty work for the EU by giving a reason for them not to accept us into the Bloc.

                      For some reason, whenever Macedonia has some issue they always run to some other country for support and they always have someone else to blame when something goes wrong.

                      Macedonia needs to focus on itself and stop waiting for the US or the EU to save it.

                      Comment

                      • Starling
                        Member
                        • Sep 2017
                        • 153

                        Funny how they were so keen on having the Balkans when they were planning on how to take apart the Ottoman empire.

                        Comment

                        • maco2envy
                          Member
                          • Jan 2015
                          • 288

                          It really narrows down to how states will benefit the union and not vice versa. Romania and Bulgaria were mainly accepted for their black sea access. Out of the entirety of the western balkans I can only see Serbia being an asset to the EU, although they won't be allowed until Kosovo is recognised.

                          Comment

                          • Tomche Makedonche
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2011
                            • 1123

                            EU’s New Balkans Enlargement Strategy Demands Reforms

                            The European Commission’s new enlargement strategy offers support for Albania, Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro and Serbia - but insists they must step up reforms and fully embrace EU values if they hope to join.


                            EU’s New Balkans Enlargement Strategy Demands Reforms

                            The European Commission’s new enlargement strategy offers support for Albania, Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro and Serbia - but insists they must step up reforms and fully embrace EU values if they hope to join

                            The European Commission launched its new enlargement strategy for the Western Balkans on Tuesday, offering help for all six EU aspirant states but insisting that all the membership hopefuls implement reforms and make a clear commitment to the “fundamental values” of the European bloc in return.

                            “All the Western Balkan countries must now urgently redouble their efforts, address vital reforms and complete their political, economic and social transformation,” the strategy document says.

                            It says that the six countries have “a historic window of opportunity to firmly and unequivocally bind their future to the European Union”.

                            But it also makes it clear that the EU sees the offer of potential membership as a “powerful tool to promote democracy, the rule of law and the respect for fundamental rights” in the Balkans.

                            “Joining the EU is far more than a technical process. It is a generational choice, based on fundamental values, which each country must embrace more actively, from their foreign and regional policies right down to what children are taught at school,” it says.

                            The strategy singles out Montenegro and Serbia as the current front-runners in the enlargement process.

                            “With strong political will, the delivery of real and sustained reforms, and definitive solutions to disputes with neighbours, they could potentially be ready for membership in a 2025 perspective,” it says.

                            However, it adds that this perspective is “extremely ambitious” and will depend on each country’s progress.

                            Albania and Macedonia are making significant progress and the Commission is ready to prepare recommendations to open accession negotiations if conditions are fulfilled, the strategy says.

                            It also says it will start considering Bosnia and Herzegovina’s membership application after it gets answers to its questions from Sarajevo.

                            “With sustained effort and engagement, Bosnia and Herzegovina could become a candidate for accession,” it suggests.

                            The strategy suggests Kosovo could progress by implementing its Stabilisation and Association Agreement with the EU and then “advance on its European path once objective circumstances allow.

                            However, it stresses that a comprehensive, legally binding normalisation agreement between Belgrade and Pristina is “urgent and crucial so that Serbia and Kosovo can advance on their respective European paths”.

                            The strategy includes six flagship initiatives ranging from initiatives to strengthen the rule of law, reinforced cooperation on security and migration through joint investigating teams and the European border and coast guards, expanding the EU Energy Union to the Western Balkans, and lowering roaming charges and rolling out broadband in the region.

                            “I will travel to each of the countries of the Western Balkans at the end of this month with a clear message: keep reforming and we will keep supporting your European future,” said the president of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker.

                            The strategy also calls for regional cooperation, good neighbourly relations and reconciliation, noting that the process of securing justice for the victims of the wars of the 1990s is incomplete.

                            “There is no place in the EU for inflammatory rhetoric, let alone for glorification of war criminals from any side,” it says, adding that the leaders of the region must condemn statements or actions which fuel ethnic tension.

                            EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini said that the Western Balkans shares the same history, cultural heritage, opportunities and challenges as the rest of Europe.

                            “This strategy gives all of us a shared, clear, unequivocal, credible and concrete perspective for each and every one of our six partners' EU integration,” she said at the presentation of the strategy
                            Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 02-06-2018, 10:00 PM.
                            “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                            Comment

                            • Tomche Makedonche
                              Senior Member
                              • Oct 2011
                              • 1123

                              According to the EU, Macedonia isn't even a frontrunner for membership, rather Serbia and Montenegro hold that title, with the hopes of joining by 2025... a date which is apparently extremely ambitious...

                              Yep, Macedonians, listen to your politicians, if you change your name you will all get into the EU, like instantly...
                              Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 02-06-2018, 10:01 PM.
                              “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                              Comment

                              • mklion
                                Member
                                • Jun 2014
                                • 100

                                THE EU DOES NOT WANT MACEDONIA IN IT. We became a candidate country in 2005. 2025 is 20 years later. Since when did we stop being a front runner ?

                                Comment

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