The Miladinov Brothers & Macedonian Literature - 19th Century

[Risto the Great]

I didn't see your other posts on my phone at the time.
This is the one I was referring to.

Originally Posted by Liberator of Makedonija

The second print of Neofit Rilski's translation of the Bible into modern Slavonic, referred to in this edition as "Bulgarian". This edition was published in 1850, a decade after the original and I have no knowledge on what differences there are.

https://vgy.me/JpLFV8.jpg

A cursory moment of research reveals Neofit Rilski wrote the first grammar book of the modern Bulgarian language.

If you have no knowledge of differences, share your knowledge about what you were looking at in your post. What makes it Macedonian? Anything specific or unique about it?

[Risto the Great]

If you hover over the little icon that looks like a mountain, it says "insert image". Paste your link there and this will happen.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

I didn't see your other posts on my phone at the time.
This is the one I was referring to.

A cursory moment of research reveals Neofit Rilski wrote the first grammar book of the modern Bulgarian language.

If you have no knowledge of differences, share your knowledge about what you were looking at in your post. What makes it Macedonian? Anything specific or unique about it?

I know wikipedia says this but in my personal opinion I believe all South Slavic literature from the early-mid 19th century is relevant to us. The Miladinov brothers called their work 'Bulgarian Folk Songs' but we all know how important that work was for Macedonian literature.

Neofit Rilski was from Bansko and the dialect he wrote his bible translation into was supposedly based off the one spoken in Gorna Džumaja. The man was from Macedonia and wrote in a Macedonian dialect, irregardless of the label slapped onto his work I think he and his publications are very relevant when discussing 19th century Macedonian literature.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

If you hover over the little icon that looks like a mountain, it says "insert image". Paste your link there and this will happen.

Thank you, that defiantly will help.

[Carlin]

Dimitar Miladinov - "Во Охрида 1860 Марта 6" (In Ohrid 1860 March 6), published by the newspaper "Цареградский вестник" (Цариградски вестник), year X, number 476 - Цариград, 26 март 1860 година.

Dimitar Miladinov's report on the enthusiasm of the residents of Ohrid who are building and opening a new Bulgarian school in Ohrid, in 1860.

[Karposh]

Originally Posted by Carlin15

Dimitar Miladinov - "Во Охрида 1860 Марта 6" (In Ohrid 1860 March 6), published by the newspaper "Цареградский вестник" (Цариградски вестник), year X, number 476 - Цариград, 26 март 1860 година.

Dimitar Miladinov's report on the enthusiasm of the residents of Ohrid who are building and opening a new Bulgarian school in Ohrid, in 1860.

Clearly, the Miladinov brothers were Bulgarophiles. In 1860-Macedonia, any school that was conducted in a language people could understand would have been welcome. My guess would be that the enthusiasm which the brainwashed Bulgarian sympathiser Dimitar Miladinov was describing was more to do with this fact alone and not because the school would be "Bulgarian". They would no longer need to send their kids to Greek schools which were conducted in a completely alien language to them but to a school that was conducted in a "nashki" language. A well documented debate raged at the time whether the "Bulgarian" language should include the Macedonian dialects in its eventual standardisation since the Macedonians could barely understand standard Bulgarian, that was based on the eastern Macedonian dialects. I purposely use the terms "eastern Macedonian" dialects because that is what they are. Strictly speaking old Bulgarian as spoken by Khan Asparuh was simply Turkish and not the language they speak today, which is heavily influenced by the Russian language. And, since people spoke the same language well before the proto-Bulgars arrived in the area, the rightful name, in my opinion, for all those dialects would be Macedonian.

The Miladinov brothers were among many other similar intellectuals of the time who thought they knew better and bought into the foreign propaganda of the time. Their allegiances changed back and forth from pan-Slavic Russian to Bulgarian. Unfortunately, I have yet to come across a time where they considered themselves simply Macedonian.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Originally Posted by Karposh

Clearly, the Miladinov brothers were Bulgarophiles. In 1860-Macedonia, any school that was conducted in a language people could understand would have been welcome. My guess would be that the enthusiasm which the brainwashed Bulgarian sympathiser Dimitar Miladinov was describing was more to do with this fact alone and not because the school would be "Bulgarian". They would no longer need to send their kids to Greek schools which were conducted in a completely alien language to them but to a school that was conducted in a "nashki" language. A well documented debate raged at the time whether the "Bulgarian" language should include the Macedonian dialects in its eventual standardisation since the Macedonians could barely understand standard Bulgarian, that was based on the eastern Macedonian dialects. I purposely use the terms "eastern Macedonian" dialects because that is what they are. Strictly speaking old Bulgarian as spoken by Khan Asparuh was simply Turkish and not the language they speak today, which is heavily influenced by the Russian language. And, since people spoke the same language well before the proto-Bulgars arrived in the area, the rightful name, in my opinion, for all those dialects would be Macedonian.

The Miladinov brothers were among many other similar intellectuals of the time who thought they knew better and bought into the foreign propaganda of the time. Their allegiances changed back and forth from pan-Slavic Russian to Bulgarian. Unfortunately, I have yet to come across a time where they considered themselves simply Macedonian.

I wouldn't categorise them into the same vein as Bulgarophiles. We need to understand the Bulgarian label had a very different meaning during this period and this particular period (the 1860s) was arguably the peak of the church movement in the Balkans that sought the creation of a Slavophone church. The Bulgarian label was applied to what this new church would be but it was decades later that this label began to take on a more ethnic definition. Krste Misirkov notes that many Macedonians during this period referred to themselves as Bulgarians but by the time he wrote 'On Macedonian Matters' (1903) it had become clear to much of the Macedonian intelligentsia that that label was now being used as a propoganda tool by the new principality and was being fiercely resisted by the Macedonian people.

[Karposh]

Originally Posted by Liberator of Makedonija

I wouldn't categorise them into the same vein as Bulgarophiles. We need to understand the Bulgarian label had a very different meaning during this period and this particular period (the 1860s) was arguably the peak of the church movement in the Balkans that sought the creation of a Slavophone church. The Bulgarian label was applied to what this new church would be but it was decades later that this label began to take on a more ethnic definition. Krste Misirkov notes that many Macedonians during this period referred to themselves as Bulgarians but by the time he wrote 'On Macedonian Matters' (1903) it had become clear to much of the Macedonian intelligentsia that that label was now being used as a propoganda tool by the new principality and was being fiercely resisted by the Macedonian people.

Good point LoM. I'm pretty sure that's what Krste Misirkov had in mind when he made that famous observation about the Macedonians (which Greeks and Bulgarians love to point out). This is a very valid argument and I think people shouldn't dismiss it off-hand as clutching onto straws. It does seem as though the term "Bulgarian" during that time was used in the sense to describe a Christian Orthodox Slav and not in an ethnic sense. Proof for this is that even the Tsar of Russia was apparently described by the people of the Balkans as a Bulgarian Tsar because he was a Christian Orthodox Slav and, obviously, not because he was an ethnic Bulgarian.

[Liberator of Makedonija]

Originally Posted by Karposh

Good point LoM. I'm pretty sure that's what Krste Misirkov had in mind when he made that famous observation about the Macedonians (which Greeks and Bulgarians love to point out). This is a very valid argument and I think people shouldn't dismiss it off-hand as clutching onto straws. It does seem as though the term "Bulgarian" during that time was used in the sense to describe a Christian Orthodox Slav and not in an ethnic sense. Proof for this is that even the Tsar of Russia was apparently described by the people of the Balkans as a Bulgarian Tsar because he was a Christian Orthodox Slav and, obviously, not because he was an ethnic Bulgarian.

Spot on, I also ready the same thing about the Russian Tsar. I think a lot of us Macedonains get freaked-out whenever we see the Bulgarian label attached to something from our past and it has become a bit of a taboo. We should be trying to understand that words change meanings over time and what a Bulgarian was then is very different to what a Bulgarian is now.

[Karposh]

Originally Posted by Liberator of Makedonija

Spot on, I also ready the same thing about the Russian Tsar. I think a lot of us Macedonains get freaked-out whenever we see the Bulgarian label attached to something from our past and it has become a bit of a taboo. We should be trying to understand that words change meanings over time and what a Bulgarian was then is very different to what a Bulgarian is now.

The Miladinov brothers were the exception to this assumption of ours I think. I read somewhere, it might have been Wikipedia, that one of them even went on a pilgrimage to the river Volga in Russia to pay homage to his Bulgarian ancestors. That's why I'm more critical of the Miladinov brothers. There is no escaping the fact they considered themselves "Bulgarians" in the ethnic sense.