Empowerment of Macedonians

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  • julie
    Senior Member
    • May 2009
    • 3869

    #16
    All good
    Lets try and get as many people receptive to changing , by boosting their self-confidence to become pro-active in achieving what we all desperately want for Macedonia
    "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

    Comment

    • blackcactus
      Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 242

      #17
      Originally posted by julie View Post
      BC< define hardline and extreme, so we may defeat the slave mentality and not accommodate it

      It's not what you or I see as hard-line or extreme, it's what the general RoM public sees as hard-line or extreme. If your going to educate/market to that specific group you need to understand that group, what we think on that point has no bearing in this exercise

      You may have to look at some type of market research to get your answer

      Cheers

      BC
      Last edited by blackcactus; 09-21-2011, 01:04 AM.
      The one who tells the story rules the World - Hopi proverb

      “Your highness, when I said that you are like a stream of bat's piss, I only meant that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark” - Monty Python

      Comment

      • Vangelovski
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 8531

        #18
        Originally posted by blackcactus View Post
        It's not what you or I see as hard-line or extreme, it's what the general RoM public sees as hard-line or extreme. If your going to educate/market to that specific group you need to understand that group, what we think has no bearing in this exercise

        You may have to look at some type of market research to get your answer

        Cheers

        BC
        BC, I think this is the whole problem. Many Macedonians see the very idea of ending the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement as 'hardline' and 'extreme'. That is something we are looking to change, not accommodate. There really is only black and white in this instance. There is no room for the IA and FA are sort of bad, but sort of ok mentality.

        If you are talking about the "language" used, then I would point you to the Macedonian Cause thread as an example. Do you think there is anything in there that people would see as "hardline" or "extreme" and if so, why?
        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

        Comment

        • blackcactus
          Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 242

          #19
          Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
          BC, I think this is the whole problem. Many Macedonians see the very idea of ending the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement as 'hardline' and 'extreme'. That is something we are looking to change, not accommodate. There really is only black and white in this instance. There is no room for the IA and FA are sort of bad, but sort of ok mentality.

          If you are talking about the "language" used, then I would point you to the Macedonian Cause thread as an example. Do you think there is anything in there that people would see as "hardline" or "extreme" and if so, why?

          This exercise is about suggesting ways to educate the RoM public, it's not about pandering.. being strategic? then yes

          I have made my suggestions and explained my reasons

          Circular discussions will get us no-where fast, therefore I wont comment again
          The one who tells the story rules the World - Hopi proverb

          “Your highness, when I said that you are like a stream of bat's piss, I only meant that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark” - Monty Python

          Comment

          • Risto the Great
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 15658

            #20
            Originally posted by blackcactus View Post
            It's really a marketing and education exercise

            We want to educate using the tools of marketing because of the size of the group (a whole country), cost and effectiveness are high considerations

            What we often see in countries like Australia to get idea's across to so many people is advertising campaigns on TV, Radio, Internet and News Papers, preferably all at once. This could come at a considerable cost. Lower cost options are also available with creativity

            Any campaign in RoM should be about the positive education on the old flag, NOT one focused on the negatives of the current flag, doing this too early could run the risk of alienating the public to what they may see as extremest views, and once that happens we have lost any future capital, we will then most likely see an active resistance to our ideas develop from amongst the population making the job much harder

            The reality is that people already support the current flag, if we think that after we insulted their current flag we will get much sympathy for our ideas, then I believe we are seriously out of touch with the reality on the ground, it's self defeating to be appear extremist to the general public

            Remember any campaign like this will be scrutinised by the media in RoM they will eventually find this forum and dredge through MTO which is in the public domain, if we appear like a bunch of hard-liners happy to treat the general public like idiots they will burn our campaign with it, a level of maturity and moderation is required in public by everyone

            In explaining ideas when marketing, or even just talking here a few points that need to be considered, there are others but this will do for this discussion

            1: Keep in mind others point of view
            2: Listen and respond to questions
            3: Avoid talking over people’s head
            4: Avoid talking down to people
            5: Focus on benefits
            6: Use analogies to make concepts clearer
            7: Compare new concepts to familiar ones

            Cheers

            BC
            BC, it is impossible to say you are wrong.
            However it needs to be said that Macedonians gave up all of their sovereignty progressively from 1993 through to 2001. They did it without barely a whimper. They certainly have been urged (very diplomatically in a manner not unlike you are suggesting) by the Diaspora to come to their senses for the last 20 years. They have never been shamed before so I see it as a viable potential alternative strategy. Like it or not, they hold the key to Macedonia's longevity and what they have accepted is shameful. It may not be one particular capitulation but over time it has been a never ending sequence of capitulations that have caused such a confused race to exist.

            Personally, I am disgusted with them. If they can get off their fat arses to cheer for a bouncing ball, then they ought to be able to bounce their arses to "Warrior on Horse" and write his fucking name on the statue with a spray paint can. They should also be able to do a fair bit more than that. But we are not allowed to say that because it might offend them .... these thoughts are purely my own and may not necessarily be those of the MTO.

            BC, do you think AMHRC was hardline or extreme when they demanded a return to the original flag in a recent campaign? I certainly didn't.

            What makes anyone think the Macedonians of the Macedonian Republic do not know about the capitulations in relation to the flag/sovereignty anyway? Surely they know about the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement. They live there and are victims of these agreements every day.
            Risto the Great
            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

            Comment

            • blackcactus
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 242

              #21
              Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
              BC, do you think AMHRC was hardline or extreme when they demanded a return to the original flag in a recent campaign? I certainly didn't.
              No I don't, in fact I thought it was very well presented, but it's not up to me (a believer), that's the whole point of Julie's thread

              When your marketing to a group of people (non-believers) you need to find out about them, no point asking me about my opinion on this point, you might as well just ask yourself, I doubt my opinion would be any different to yours

              As for your strategy of shaming them into compliance, all I can say is “good luck with that”, I don't see it working for the public as a whole any time soon for reasons I have already spoken about

              Anyway I made my suggestion, take it or leave it

              Cheers

              BC
              Last edited by blackcactus; 09-21-2011, 02:49 AM.
              The one who tells the story rules the World - Hopi proverb

              “Your highness, when I said that you are like a stream of bat's piss, I only meant that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark” - Monty Python

              Comment

              • julie
                Senior Member
                • May 2009
                • 3869

                #22
                One solitary individual cannot achieve much, but a group of like-minded individuals can achieve great things. How do we empower solitary individuals to join and create groups, so they may (peacefully) protest, demonstrate and start putting some pressure on the government? The basketball was indeed sadly a missed opportunity, free advertising for the whole world to see the people are not docile and without any national pride, as the Macedonian media seems to be all government sponsored,
                "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

                Comment

                • Risto the Great
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 15658

                  #23
                  Originally posted by blackcactus View Post
                  When your marketing to a group of people (non-believers) you need to find out about them, no point asking me about my opinion on this point, you might as well just ask yourself, I doubt my opinion would be any different to yours
                  Dare I draw parallels with non-believers as it relates to religion. What would it take to convert them? Some go for the end of days routine, others require a different approach.

                  I personally think Macedonia is close to the "end of days" situation and the situation lends itself to highlighting that fact. Many knowledgeable people on Macedonian affairs agree that Macedonia has lost its sovereignty and is beyond redemption without a revolution. I don't think there is time to to explain this in a non offensive manner to be honest. Most Macedonians have embraced their plight without a whimper (like slaves).
                  Risto the Great
                  MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                  "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                  Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                  Comment

                  • julie
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2009
                    • 3869

                    #24
                    Revolution.
                    There appear to be many disgruntled Macedonians in Macedonia, that want changes.
                    Individuals. There do not appear to be groups of Macedonians, for there to be a revolution, we need the masses
                    "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

                    Comment

                    • Bill77
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2009
                      • 4545

                      #25
                      Originally posted by blackcactus View Post

                      As for your strategy of shaming them into compliance, all I can say is “good luck with that”, I don't see it working for the public as a whole any time soon for reasons I have already spoken about

                      BC
                      I totally agree with you here BC. Its something iv'e been trying to get across. Save the shaming for our enemies, treat our own as our children. I certainly don't abuse my kids when mistakes happen. If i did, they would grow up to rebel against me or never to want to see me again. Its natural for people to put up their defences when they feel low self esteem.

                      I just had a wonderful chat with a good friend. I brought up a scene from brave heart that we are all familiar with. The great speech to his army who's moral were low. They had now self esteem and started leaving before battle.

                      It went something like "Yes you can all go back to your homes and live like slaves......They may take our lives but they will never take our freedom"

                      What would the reaction have been if he said,

                      "Piss off home you wimps. You are nothing but traitors.....Live under a slave mentality or harden up sunshine"
                      http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                      Comment

                      • Vangelovski
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 8531

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
                        I brought up a scene from brave heart that we are all familiar with. The great speech to his army who's moral were low. They had now self esteem and started leaving before battle.

                        It went something like "Yes you can all go back to your homes and live like slaves......They may take our lives but they will never take our freedom"
                        But Bill, this is exactly the type of language you have been whining about!
                        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                        Comment

                        • George S.
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 2009
                          • 10116

                          #27
                          macedonians have embraced a particular mindset & they don't even think of contemplating of getting out.They feel trapped & unless they have somekind of revolution there is no way out.
                          Last edited by George S.; 09-21-2011, 04:19 AM. Reason: ed
                          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                          GOTSE DELCEV

                          Comment

                          • Bill77
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2009
                            • 4545

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                            But Bill, this is exactly the type of language you have been whining about!
                            You are not making sense????

                            That example you high lighted is the negetive one.

                            Compare the two examples and tell me which would be more efective?
                            http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                            Comment

                            • Vangelovski
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 8531

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Bill77 View Post
                              You are not making sense????

                              That example you high lighted is the negetive one.

                              Compare the two examples and tell me which would be more efective?
                              No its the positive one you provided. You called it a "great speech" and a boost to morale. Its the one that Mel Gibson gave in Braveheart. Do you even read your own posts?
                              If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                              The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                              Comment

                              • blackcactus
                                Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 242

                                #30
                                I don't normally worry about an argument between two forum members, but watching Bill trying to explain what he meant to Vangelovski is painful

                                Just so Bill doesn't feel he is going mad since his comments were directed at me originally, I'll say one thing

                                Bill I know exactly what you meant!
                                The one who tells the story rules the World - Hopi proverb

                                “Your highness, when I said that you are like a stream of bat's piss, I only meant that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark” - Monty Python

                                Comment

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