Macedonia region census early 1900s

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    #31
    Originally posted by Poligiros View Post
    Soldier of Macedon, we are trying to have an honest discussion here, no need to ruin it with exaggerated, nationalistic propaganda.
    What I stated is the truth. Propaganda is what you wrote subsequent to the above.
    Firstly, under Alexanders unification, the Macedonians and the other independent Greek city/states were one and the same prior to the Roman empire control that occurred around 150BC.
    Absolute rubbish. Brush up on your history from that period.
    It was called the Hellenistic age whereby Alexander spread the Greek language and culture to the far east.
    Wrong. It wasn't called that. It is called that now because your German buddies decided to coin the term in the 19th century.
    Can you show me one ancient Macedonian inscription that is not written in a form of ancient Greek?
    Hard to do that given that most Paleo-Balkan peoples didn't have a rich literary tradition of their own. That is why even Thracians, Illyrians and Paeonians used Greek inscriptions on their coins. Does that make them all Greek? Does it come as a surprise to you that different peoples that live close to each other happen to borrow from one another?
    Why are all the ancient Macedonian artefacts, linguistics intelligible using modern Greek?
    Irrelevant question as they are not written in the ancient Macedonian language. And spare me the theory of modern Greeks finding ancient Greek inscriptions readily "intelligible". They may find some elements which they could understand, but the average modern Greek would not be able to read a whole book written in Attic without referring to a dictionary.
    The ancient Macedonians (were a Dorian tribe from the southern regions of ancient Greece).
    The ancient Macedonians were a Paleo-Balkan people related to the Thracians and Illyrians. The idea of a mythical connection which was developed by Macedonian kings and swallowed by some Hellenes is where this deluded theory of Macedonians being "Hellenes" comes from. Other peoples from antiquity also claimed a lineage from some god or mythical figure to increase their credibility. No major revelation there. As for the Macedonians originating from southern Greece, please......
    ........don't forget there was a large Hellenic populace residing in Bitola (Monastiri) up until the early 1900s.
    Patriarchist Vlachs were not "Hellenes".
    Your focus and dreams are purely on Aegean Macedonia, that is 98% Hellenic today.
    We will always focus on all parts of the indigenous Macedonian homeland. By the way, don't get confused about where you are. Some of my compatriots may be giving you some leeway but I know exactly what type of person you are and your true feelings towards us. This is a Macedonian forum where the Macedonian perspective on Macedonian history will be given prevalence and promoted. It is not a stomping ground for morons to come and endlessly contest Macedonian history - they have had their say previously on other threads and regurgitation is neither desired nor required. Have a think about that before you return to enlighten us some more, because I am quickly beginning to tire from your manipulative dribble.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Poligiros
      Banned
      • Mar 2014
      • 121

      #32
      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
      What I stated is the truth. Propaganda is what you wrote subsequent to the above.

      Absolute rubbish. Brush up on your history from that period.

      Wrong. It wasn't called that. It is called that now because your German buddies decided to coin the term in the 19th century.
      Depends on what reputable ivy league institutions you base your history on. Reading history, and using artefacts Ancient Macedonian history seems pretty clear to most people.

      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post

      Hard to do that given that most Paleo-Balkan peoples didn't have a rich literary tradition of their own. That is why even Thracians, Illyrians and Paeonians used Greek inscriptions on their coins. Does that make them all Greek? Does it come as a surprise to you that different peoples that live close to each other happen to borrow from one another?
      The topic at hand is the ancient Macedonians. We know what culture and language they decided to promote. If the Illyrian empire conquered the known world, I cannot state what language and culture they would have utilized? I do not know how geographically close they were to the other Greek city/states.

      In addition, ofcourse people that live close to each other borrow and and inter-related. Its just that you guys believe that Macedonians somehow never had any Hellenic element to their culture or ethos, it has been quite prevalent throughout history.

      [/QUOTE]

      I am just being honest here. If you want a one way conversation and for me to ignore reputable history and findings, well I will go away!

      Someone once told me, the Macedonian sun shines for all groups in the region. Not just us, the Hellenes. Think about it from your perspective. You believe you are indigenous to the area, from what I can gather, my family and many Hellenes are also native to Aegean macedonia.

      The sun shines for all cultures of Macedonia throughout history

      Comment

      • Dejan
        Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 589

        #33
        "Native Greeks" in Bitola? Lol. The vlachs who originate in that area beg to differ.

        You have lost most of your credibility with that statement, if you started off with any that is.
        You want Macedonia? Come and take it from my blood!

        A prosperous, independent and free Macedonia for Macedonians will be the ultimate revenge to our enemies.

        Comment

        • Poligiros
          Banned
          • Mar 2014
          • 121

          #34
          Originally posted by Dejan View Post
          "Native Greeks" in Bitola? Lol. The vlachs who originate in that area beg to differ.

          You have lost most of your credibility with that statement, if you started off with any that is.
          I have a close friend who is a Vlach from the Pindus mountains, not far from one of my grandparents village. He claims that Vlach are descendants of ancient Greeks.

          The Vlach have a right to claim descent from their ancient descendants, in much of the same manner as the rest of the Balkans.

          Just having a quick look at Wiki?

          Genetics[edit]

          In 2006 Bosch et al. attempted to determine if the Vlachs are descendants of Latinised Dacians, Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks or a combination of these, but no hypothesis could be proven because of the underlying genetic similarity of all the tested Balkan groups.


          Interesting statement. "Underlying genetic similarity of all tested Balkan groups"......

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            #35
            Originally posted by Poligiros View Post
            Depends on what reputable ivy league institutions you base your history on. Reading history, and using artefacts Ancient Macedonian history seems pretty clear to most people.
            I don't need to refer to an ivy league institution to know that the term 'Hellenistic' never existed prior to the 19th century. My opinions on Macedonian history are based on credible modern scholars and above all on a logical interpretation of the works from antiquity. Using artifacts as your main point of argument in defining a certain people is weak at best and delusional at worst.
            The topic at hand is the ancient Macedonians. We know what culture and language they decided to promote.
            When Phillip II developed the blueprint for the invasion of Asia he wasn't thinking (or caring) about how many Asians would learn to speak or become Greek. The spread of the Greek language in that period was a by-product of the Macedonian campaign. It was a language already used by many different peoples in both Europe and Asia for trade and education, so it shouldn't come as a shock that its use by Macedonian kings would've simplified matters from an administrative perspective. It was the lingua franca of its time. A couple of centuries ago it was French. Today it's English. There are thousands of Celtic-speaking peoples from Ireland, Wales and Scotland that have emigrated to countries where English is not the national language, yet when they've established stores, restaurants, pubs, etc, many of them have no doubt used English as a medium language on their menus and signage. Does that make them all English? Do they all have a secret and deep desire to "promote" the English language? The answer is simple. No. And to further add to that example, all three of those Celtic peoples have their own literature, something which Macedonians from antiquity did not. So, concerning the Macedonians and their use of the Greek language, it is far from the black and white picture you and others of your ilk are trying to paint.
            If the Illyrian empire conquered the known world, I cannot state what language and culture they would have utilized?
            Neither can I, but one could reasonably deduce that there is a probable chance they would have used the same language they used on the coins they utilised for trade.
            I do not know how geographically close they were to the other Greek city/states.
            As geographically close as the Macedonians were.
            Its just that you guys believe that Macedonians somehow never had any Hellenic element to their culture or ethos, it has been quite prevalent throughout history.
            I readily accept that the Macedonians from antiquity adopted certain elements of Hellenic culture, similar to how Hellenes adopted elements from Thracian and other cultures. That does not make Macedonians into Hellenes anymore than it makes Hellenes into Thracians.
            If you want a one way conversation and for me to ignore reputable history and findings, well I will go away!
            Presenting historical findings alone and accompanying those findings with an anti-Macedonian perspective are two different things. Like I told you earlier, your people have had ample opportunity here to contest our history. That is the past. If you wish to search through previous threads, then go for it. Now is the time to move forward and promote the Macedonian view on Macedonia. That is, afterall, what this forum is about.
            You believe you are indigenous to the area, from what I can gather, my family and many Hellenes are also native to Aegean macedonia.
            I can accept the existence of Greek-speaking people in Macedonia throughout history, but many of the modern Greeks in Macedonia were something else not too long ago, and the overwhelming majority of modern Greeks in Macedonia today are imports from what is now modern Turkey.
            The sun shines for all cultures of Macedonia throughout history
            Too bad you or your folk don't apply the same wishful standard for the history of modern Greece.
            Interesting statement. "Underlying genetic similarity of all tested Balkan groups"......
            What does that tell you?
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Toska
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 137

              #36
              Originally posted by Poligiros View Post
              I have a close friend who is a Vlach from the Pindus mountains, not far from one of my grandparents village. He claims that Vlach are descendants of ancient Greeks.

              The Vlach have a right to claim descent from their ancient descendants, in much of the same manner as the rest of the Balkans.

              Just having a quick look at Wiki?

              Genetics[edit]

              In 2006 Bosch et al. attempted to determine if the Vlachs are descendants of Latinised Dacians, Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks or a combination of these, but no hypothesis could be proven because of the underlying genetic similarity of all the tested Balkan groups.


              Interesting statement. "Underlying genetic similarity of all tested Balkan groups"......

              so you beleive that vlahs are all these or any of these and 30 million slavs just took over the whole balkans, killing all the Illyrians,Thracians,Dacians,Paonians,Macedonians,D ardarians,Raskians,Dalmatians,Venetians and took ver whole Balkans and Eastern Europe and without anyone really knowing what really happened, wouldnt that have been the biggest and most reported event EVERRR ???

              Comment

              • DraganOfStip
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2011
                • 1253

                #37
                Originally posted by Poligiros View Post
                Not just us, the Hellenes. Think about it from your perspective. You believe you are indigenous to the area, from what I can gather, my family and many Hellenes are also native to Aegean macedonia.
                The word "Hellenes" was first used in an ethnic sense in the 19th century.
                Before that,it had many meanings throughout history: a gentile, a pagan, a non-jew ,even in a religious sense to distinguish a person from non-Christians.
                So,when someone referred to himself or to a group of people as "Hellene" or "Hellenes",it wasn't in a sense of ethnic affiliation.
                So from that perspective yes,there were many "Hellenes" native from Aegean Macedonia.
                ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                ― George Orwell

                Comment

                • Philosopher
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1003

                  #38
                  Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
                  The word "Hellenes" was first used in an ethnic sense in the 19th century.
                  Before that,it had many meanings throughout history: a gentile, a pagan, a non-jew ,even in a religious sense to distinguish a person from non-Christians.
                  So,when someone referred to himself or to a group of people as "Hellene" or "Hellenes",it wasn't in a sense of ethnic affiliation.
                  So from that perspective yes,there were many "Hellenes" native from Aegean Macedonia.
                  Not entirely correct. Hellene was used in an ethnic sense before the 19th century, though no doubt it was also used in the manners you referenced.

                  In the New Testament, for example, it is used in a number of ways, including in an ethnic sense.

                  Comment

                  • Poligiros
                    Banned
                    • Mar 2014
                    • 121

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    I don't need to refer to an ivy league institution to know that the term 'Hellenistic' never existed prior to the 19th century. My opinions on Macedonian history are based on credible modern scholars and above all on a logical interpretation of the works from antiquity. Using artifacts as your main point of argument in defining a certain people is weak at best and delusional at wo

                    Neither can I, but one could reasonably deduce that there is a probable chance they would have used the same language they used on the coins they utilised for trade.

                    As geographically close as the Macedonians were.

                    I readily accept that the Macedonians from antiquity adopted certain elements of Hellenic culture, similar to how Hellenes adopted elements from Thracian and other cultures. That does not make Macedonians into Hellenes anymore than it makes Hellenes into Thracians.

                    Presenting historical findings alone and accompanying those findings with an anti-Macedonian perspective are two different things. Like I told you earlier, your people have had ample opportunity here to contest our history. That is the past. If you wish to search through previous threads, then go for it. Now is the time to move forward and promote the Macedonian view on Macedonia. That is, afterall, what this forum is about.

                    I can accept the existence of Greek-speaking people in Macedonia throughout history, but many of the modern Greeks in Macedonia were something else not too long ago, and the overwhelming majority of modern Greeks in Macedonia today are imports from what is now modern Turkey.

                    Too bad you or your folk don't apply the same wishful standard for the history of modern Greece.

                    What does that tell you?
                    Well, we are sort of on the same page now. My point is that even if the ancient Macedonians weren't entirely 'Greek' you have re-iterated and confirm that they adopted many elements of the predominate Hellenic culture of the day, that is a reputable fact. Therefore, why do 'nationalistic macedonians' have a distinct dislike for anything remotely Hellenic? If you are a proud Macedonian, you would want to learn the culture, language of your forefathers?

                    I am the first to admit that our DNA is similar in the Balkans to the point that most historians and geneticists probably cannot clearly distinguish between the modern people and ancient tribes, Illyrians, Macedonians, Thracians etc.

                    However, it is predominately your side that tries to prove constantly that somehow all Greeks are Turkish 'imposters' to Aegean Macedonia and you are the rightful owners of a "greater macedonia". While we are on the topic of honesty, in my opinion, your main goal/dream is to annex or claim Aegean Macedonia. The name issue is only a red herring.

                    Finally, regarding our Illyrian example, I do believe they were totally Hellenised by the fourth century BC. Therefore, they too would fall under the broader Greek city/states, and if there was a geographical location being contested between modern Hellenes and say, Albanians, the Hellenes would likely be the righful owners in my opinion ;-)

                    Comment

                    • Philosopher
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 1003

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Poligiros View Post
                      Well, we are sort of on the same page now. My point is that even if the ancient Macedonians weren't entirely 'Greek' you have re-iterated and confirm that they adopted many elements of the predominate Hellenic culture of the day, that is a reputable fact. Therefore, why do 'nationalistic macedonians' have a distinct dislike for anything remotely Hellenic? If you are a proud Macedonian, you would want to learn the culture, language of your forefathers?
                      And the problem with the "Hellenic position", which you subscribe to, is that you make a huge leap in logic, which is to say, a certain element of the Macedonian royal house claimed (without proof) Argive descent, knew Greek, and was fond of Greek culture, and THEREFORE, "they (the common Macedonian) adopted many elements of the predominate Hellenic culture of the day", which is quite improbable and problematic because the common Macedonian plebeian did no such thing. You are conflating a small percentage of Macedonian royalty and applying it to all Macedonians.

                      So the language of our forefathers was not Greek, but another language, and only the royal (and educated) element used Greek (as a second language).

                      I am the first to admit that our DNA is similar in the Balkans to the point that most historians and geneticists probably cannot clearly distinguish between the modern people and ancient tribes, Illyrians, Macedonians, Thracians etc.

                      However, it is predominately your side that tries to prove constantly that somehow all Greeks are Turkish 'imposters' to Aegean Macedonia and you are the rightful owners of a "greater macedonia". While we are on the topic of honesty, in my opinion, your main goal/dream is to annex or claim Aegean Macedonia. The name issue is only a red herring.

                      Finally, regarding our Illyrian example, I do believe they were totally Hellenised by the fourth century BC. Therefore, they too would fall under the broader Greek city/states, and if there was a geographical location being contested between modern Hellenes and say, Albanians, the Hellenes would likely be the righful owners in my opinion ;-)
                      I will let SoM address the rest.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13670

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Poligiros View Post
                        Well, we are sort of on the same page now. My point is that even if the ancient Macedonians weren't entirely 'Greek' you have re-iterated and confirm that they adopted many elements of the predominate Hellenic culture of the day, that is a reputable fact.
                        I will use an example which I have mentioned several times in the past on this forum. The Celtic peoples from Britain and Ireland have adopted many cultural elements from the various Germanic peoples (and their English descendants) that established colonies and states in or near their lands. These include place names, personal names, customs, foods and not least among several other examples, the English language. The extent to which they've adopted the English language is evident even in their patriotic songs, many of which they sing in that language (and some of which are actually anti-English). All that being said, nobody in their right mind would say "even if the Irish weren't entirely English", because they are not English, irrespective of the depth of cultural influence from the English.
                        Therefore, why do 'nationalistic macedonians' have a distinct dislike for anything remotely Hellenic?
                        That is an overstatement. Nevertheless, to counter your question, why do patriotic people from Scotland, Ireland and Wales feel a certain way about many things English? Have a think about it, because in a general sense, the same answer would apply to both questions.
                        If you are a proud Macedonian, you would want to learn the culture, language of your forefathers?
                        I enjoy learning about the history of my people and while I am happy to acknowledge non-Macedonian elements, I don't see the need to overstate their importance.
                        I am the first to admit that our DNA is similar in the Balkans to the point that most historians and geneticists probably cannot clearly distinguish between the modern people and ancient tribes, Illyrians, Macedonians, Thracians etc.
                        Aside from some exceptions, I would generally agree with the above statement.
                        However, it is predominately your side that tries to prove constantly that somehow all Greeks are Turkish 'imposters' to Aegean Macedonia.......
                        That is an exaggeration on your part. Macedonians don't think that all modern Greeks in Aegean Macedonia are imports (or descendants of) from modern Turkey, but most of them are. That is undeniable.
                        ......and you are the rightful owners of a "greater macedonia".
                        Those who wish for the Macedonian regions to be governed by other countries go directly against the spirit of ancient Macedonia, whose kings and people fiercely defended its independence to the very end. That, and the fact that the indigenous Macedonian-speaking population were the historical majority in the region up until not long ago is why we are the rightful owners of Macedonia.
                        While we are on the topic of honesty, in my opinion, your main goal/dream is to annex or claim Aegean Macedonia. The name issue is only a red herring.
                        Are you suggesting that we would sell out our Macedonian identity for territorial gains in Aegean Macedonia?
                        Finally, regarding our Illyrian example, I do believe they were totally Hellenised by the fourth century BC. Therefore, they too would fall under the broader Greek city/states, and if there was a geographical location being contested between modern Hellenes and say, Albanians, the Hellenes would likely be the righful owners in my opinion ;-)
                        That would be plausible, in a bizarre world where Barack Obama is claimed as an Englishman.
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Tomche Makedonche
                          Senior Member
                          • Oct 2011
                          • 1123

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Philosopher View Post
                          I will let SoM address the rest.
                          I think I'll add my two cents in as well

                          Originally posted by Poligiros View Post
                          I am the first to admit that our DNA is similar in the Balkans to the point that most historians and geneticists probably cannot clearly distinguish between the modern people and ancient tribes, Illyrians, Macedonians, Thracians etc.
                          You’re the first to admit it because you recognise the genetic or biological element now has the potential to factually and unequivocally rip your xenophobic pure race narrative to pieces, so from “you’re pure ethnic slavs and we are pure ethnic Hellenes”, you now kowtow to accepting that whatever “ethnic” slav we have in us, you do as well and that we are pretty much the same in that regard …LOL

                          Let truth and falsehood grapple, truth is strong… (run you little frauds, run)


                          Originally posted by Poligiros View Post
                          However, it is predominately your side that tries to prove constantly that somehow all Greeks are Turkish 'imposters' to Aegean Macedonia and you are the rightful owners of a "greater macedonia".
                          We don’t “try” to prove anything, the population exchanges are a well recorded fact in modern history not to mention recent living memory, confirmed by multiple sources, and is not something that can be viewed in a manner of subjectiveness due to the limited first hand or second hand accounts and evidence available as a result of centuries of time that has elapsed from the event. That type of argument doesn’t work for Holocaust deniers, nor will it work for your Christian Turkish ilk.


                          Originally posted by Poligiros View Post
                          While we are on the topic of honesty, in my opinion, your main goal/dream is to annex or claim Aegean Macedonia. The name issue is only a red herring.
                          A. You’re an idiot
                          B. This is why your kind can never and will never be considered in any way shape or form as real or true Macedonians, because you don’t even have the slightest idea of what that means. Any real or true self respecting Macedonian only has one dream for Macedonia and Macedonians, and that is “Autonomy” aka “Self Rule”, the ability to govern themselves, to shape their own future as they see fit, and to only be answerable to themselves, Not to Belgrade, Not to Sofia and certainly Not to Athens. This is the fundamental difference between us and you, just like it was the fundamental difference between Alexander’s Macedonians and the ancients of the Greek city states. Even in your delusional fairy tale of “Alexander uniting the Greeks”, such a fictional union would still only be based on the condition that the rest of Greece was governed by Macedonian Rule, that they bow to Pella not the other way around, the way your kind purports this fictional delusion is that Alexander would have been happy for Athens or any other city state to govern the Greeks and Macedonians so long as there was a union to invade Asia together, preposterous!!!!, I don’t think any credible historian or “ivy league institutions” (like that somehow has any bearing on anything anyway) would touch such a concept with a ten foot pole, yet here you are, claiming to be one of Alexander’s descendants whilst you happily bow to your masters in Athens rather than wanting to rule yourself, and you dare call yourself a Macedonian?, let alone one of Alexander’s Macedonians. The only thing Macedonian you can attribute to yourself comes from a geographical sense, nothing else, your self professed ethnic identity is that of a “Greek” (although more than likely former Christian Turk turned Greek) whose allegiance lies with Athens and the fabricated state known as the Republic of Greece, no different to how some deluded people once upon a time considered themselves ethnic Yugoslavs whose allegiance lied with Belgrade in the fabricated Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia. The only difference is, no matter the propaganda that fabricated state sponsored, the people saw through that fabrication, whilst your ilk swallowed, and continue to swallow it whole.


                          Originally posted by Poligiros View Post
                          Finally, regarding our Illyrian example, I do believe they were totally Hellenised by the fourth century BC. Therefore, they too would fall under the broader Greek city/states, and if there was a geographical location being contested between modern Hellenes and say, Albanians, the Hellenes would likely be the righful owners in my opinion ;-)
                          The only thing your kind are the rightful owners of is homosexuality and paedophilia, now go bend over in front of your masters in Athens you “Greek”.
                          “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                          Comment

                          • Poligiros
                            Banned
                            • Mar 2014
                            • 121

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
                            I think I'll add my two cents in as well



                            You’re the first to admit it because you recognise the genetic or biological element now has the potential to factually and unequivocally rip your xenophobic pure race narrative to pieces, so from “you’re pure ethnic slavs and we are pure ethnic Hellenes”,

                            Let truth and falsehood grapple, truth is strong… (run you little frauds, run)




                            We don’t “try” to prove anything, the population exchanges are a well recorded fact in modern history not to mention recent living memory, confirmed by multiple sources, and is not something that can be viewed in a manner of subjectiveness due to the limited first hand or second hand accounts and evidence available as a result of centuries of time that has elapsed from the event. That type of argument doesn’t work for Holocaust deniers, nor will it work for your Christian Turkish ilk.




                            A. You’re an idiot
                            B. This is why your kind can never and will never be considered in any way shape or form as real or true Macedonians, because you don’t even have the slightest idea of what that means. Any real or true self respecting Macedonian only has one dream for Macedonia and Macedonians, and that is “Autonomy” aka “Self Rule”, the ability to govern themselves, to shape their own future as they see fit, and to only be answerable to themselves, Not to Belgrade, Not to Sofia and certainly Not to Athens. This is the fundamental difference between us and you, just like it was the fundamental difference between Alexander’s Macedonians and the ancients of the Greek city states. Even in your delusional fairy tale of “Alexander uniting the Greeks”, such a fictional union would still only be based on the condition that the rest of Greece was governed by Macedonian Rule, that they bow to Pella not the other way around, the way your kind purports this fictional delusion is that Alexander would have been happy for Athens or any other city state to govern the Greeks and Macedonians so long as there was a union to invade Asia together, preposterous!!!!, I don’t think any credible historian or “ivy league institutions” (like that somehow has any bearing on anything anyway) would touch such a concept with a ten foot pole, yet here you are, claiming to be one of Alexander’s descendants whilst you happily bow to your masters in Athens rather than wanting to rule yourself, and you dare call yourself a Macedonian?, let alone one of Alexander’s Macedonians. The only thing Macedonian you can attribute to yourself comes from a geographical sense, nothing else, your self professed ethnic identity is that of a “Greek” (although more than likely former Christian Turk turned Greek) whose allegiance lies with Athens and the fabricated state known as the Republic of Greece, no different to how some deluded people once upon a time considered themselves ethnic Yugoslavs whose allegiance lied with Belgrade in the fabricated Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia. The only difference is, no matter the propaganda that fabricated state sponsored, the people saw through that fabrication, whilst your ilk swallowed, and continue to swallow it whole.

                            The only thing your kind are the rightful owners of is homosexuality and paedophilia, now go bend over in front of your masters in Athens you “Greek”.
                            I need to digest some of the irrational, ranting in your post. Firstly, our DNA differs from the fact that your people adopted a Slavic idiom and culture - suggesting that the slavic ethnic group that migrated to the region would likely have been a majority. As the Australians are predominately Anglo descendants, the majority speak the English language. If you claim that the Hellenes have as much Slavic as you suggest, then why did we not adopt a Slavic culture and language??? If 10,000 Slavs moved to Macedonia from Russia and told me to learn Russian, I would tell them to jump. If 4,000,000 migrated to Aegean Macedonia, then I wouldn't have a choice!

                            Secondly, my two grandparents who are native to Aegean Macedonia are not christian Turks. We have gone through this many times, and your statement about your people being the majority in "Aegean Macedonia" is incorrect. Refer to all the maps your countrymen posted on this thread? You were only the majority in the northern and some north western region of Aegean Macedonia and scattered in some central regions, and missing in coastal and southern regions. Why do we have to go around in circles? Also the maps in this post (that I purposely asked for early 1900s prior to population exchanges) display a large native Hellenic presence. Its illogical that the majority of Hellenes in Aegean Macedonia today are "christian turks" based on 1900-1921 census and maps showing large presence of native Greeks (that you will not accept anyhow).

                            Overall, I think that's where your problem lies... Due to the fact that us native northern Greeks have masters that reside in Athens!!! To be honest, I feel at home in Thessaloniki, Athens is my Hellenic capital. I also feel as though Constantinople is also part of my ethos. Visiting Skope (the city), made me feel entirely detached from your culture, therefore I don't have an affinity with a south Slavic dialect (even if you feel its somehow related to ancient Macedonian??).

                            You are correct, Alexander uniting the Greeks was based on the condition that the rest of Greece was governed by Macedonian Rule, and they did bow to Pella! Dare I say it..... they spread a culture affiliated to Greek

                            As for homosexuality, I am no expert in the matter, but think you would probably find an equal proportion in the Republic as you would in Aegean Macedonia. Alexander was apparently bi-sexual, what difference does it make, apparently its cool to be gay nowadays anyhow....

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                            • Karposh
                              Member
                              • Aug 2015
                              • 863

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Poligiros View Post
                              I have a close friend who is a Vlach from the Pindus mountains, not far from one of my grandparents village. He claims that Vlach are descendants of ancient Greeks.
                              Of course he claims he is descended from the ancient Greeks. He is no different than a “friend” of mine from 20 years ago. A deluded elderly ethnic Macedonian (with origins from Salonika) who loved to spend his time arguing with me about Macedonia during work. Still fluent in Macedonian, after many years away from Greece, he believed that he was descended from the ancient Dorians and even tried to convince me of that fact. Even though we would argue, there was nevertheless a mutual respect there and, because of that, he would try desperately to convince me, that, as a Macedonian, I too am descended from the ancient Dorians but that my ancestors were assimilated by the invading Slavs.

                              This is the level of delusion that exists in these lost Macedonian souls. I try not to blame them however. I blame the naturally gifted and slick Greek salesman for this phenomenon. The Greeks are the best salesmen when it comes to selling their “superior” culture and language to other ethnic communities and swallowing them up so that they melt away without a trace. I won’t dwell on that issue too much however. I think it’s been covered enough in previous threads.

                              Getting back to your Vlach mate, fact is the Vlachs are the chameleons of the Balkans. I say that without a hint of cynicism or hostile intent but with the greatest of respect for them. If only Albanians could behave a fraction of how the Vlachs behave. No matter which country they reside in, Vlachs stay true and loyal to the host country. They are model citizens. In the RoM you couldn’t differentiate them from Macedonians to save your life. They speak perfect Macedonian; celebrate Macedonia’s National Days; share the same religion and yet, they are different. At home, they still speak their own Vlach language and the government of Macedonia supports them in preserving their own culture and language.

                              Here in lies the difference between the Vlachs of Greece and the Vlachs of the Republic of Macedonia. Whereas you Greeks try to convince them i.e. brainwash them (and other minorities) that they are actually bi-lingual Greeks from millennia ago, Macedonians accept them for who they are.

                              To be a Greek, you just need to state openly that you feel Greek; you believe that you are really descended from the ancient Greeks; and you forsake your native but inferior barbaric language and culture for the much better Greek ones. And hey “presto” you’re a bona fide Greek.
                              In RoM, it is not so easy to become a Macedonian. You are welcome to become a citizen of Macedonia but to become an ethnic Macedonian, as most Macedonians will attest to, unless you are born into the Macedonian fold, it is virtually impossible. Macedonians will live side by side to any cultural and ethnic minority for generations but will never try to assimilate or impose their own culture on someone else.

                              I guess we can be quite racist in that sense. But “racist” in a non-ugly way, if there is such a thing. Even loyal Vlachs, who are readily accepted as brothers and loyal citizens of Macedonia are very rarely completely accepted as Macedonians. I have a relative who married into a Vlach family, who are, for all intents and purposes, as Macedonian as Macedonian can be. However, the elephant in the room is always “I can’t believe she married a Vlach”.

                              Originally posted by Poligiros View Post
                              Therefore, why do 'nationalistic macedonians' have a distinct dislike for anything remotely Hellenic? If you are a proud Macedonian, you would want to learn the culture, language of your forefathers?
                              There you go again. What is it with you Greeks, always trying to sell us your glorious ancient Greek forefathers? Accept it once and for all – F#CK OFF! WE’RE NOT BUYING!!!
                              “If you are proud Macedonian”…You sound like Satan during the Temptation of Jesus. For your information, we are proud Macedonians and only Macedonians. Now go away Satan and leave us alone. None of us are interested in what you have to sell.

                              Comment

                              • Philosopher
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 1003

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Poligiros View Post
                                I need to digest some of the irrational, ranting in your post. Firstly, our DNA differs from the fact that your people adopted a Slavic idiom and culture - suggesting that the slavic ethnic group that migrated to the region would likely have been a majority. As the Australians are predominately Anglo descendants, the majority speak the English language. If you claim that the Hellenes have as much Slavic as you suggest, then why did we not adopt a Slavic culture and language??? If 10,000 Slavs moved to Macedonia from Russia and told me to learn Russian, I would tell them to jump. If 4,000,000 migrated to Aegean Macedonia, then I wouldn't have a choice!
                                Can you back this up with empirical data? Every study I have read on this subject shows that northern and central "Slavs" are characterized with high R1a, low I2a, low E3b, and low J haplogroups, and the "Slavs" of the south are characterized with low R1a, high I2a, high E3b, and high J haplogroups.

                                Northern Greeks have higher R1a than Macedonians, and southern and central Greeks are only slightly lower than Macedonians. You would expect this with historically neighboring peoples.

                                Under your scenario, if it were true, the "Slavs" of the south should be radically distinct from Greeks and Albanians and more similar to the "Slavs" of the north, but no scientific study supports this. Consider, for example, a majority of migrating Slavs wiping out or incorporating a small number of indigenous Balkan people -- the DNA evidence would support the position that today's Macedonians are the offspring of "Slavs". But the empirical data does not support this.

                                Another point. There is no Slavic culture. And there is no Slavic group. This is absurd. You Greeks (and ignorant Westerners) like to paint a very broad paint brush over people. The culture of Macedonians differs from neighboring Serbs, let alone with Russians and Poles.

                                What I find very curious, however, is that the same logic does not apply to Germanic speaking people. No one speaks of the Australians as having a "Germanic culture". So inconsistent it is mind boggling.

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