Macedonia and Bulgaria: Political Relations

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    It's really a rather comical and stupid drama unfolding before our eyes. Macedonians need to take action and assert themselves, at the moment, we are letting these liars run around the world spreading all sorts of manipulated garbage, while our own 'leaders' or 'scholars' sit on their hands, waiting for those elusive 'better days' to come.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Frank
      Banned
      • Mar 2010
      • 687

      Sadly there will be no reaction there are enough Bulgarian systematisers in our Country to not make it happen

      Comment

      • Pelister
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 2742

        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
        It's really a rather comical and stupid drama unfolding before our eyes. Macedonians need to take action and assert themselves, at the moment, we are letting these liars run around the world spreading all sorts of manipulated garbage, while our own 'leaders' or 'scholars' sit on their hands, waiting for those elusive 'better days' to come.
        I think they've been bought by false promises. Macedonia has been squeezed so tightly that they are afraid to go out onto the streets and protest.

        Comment

        • Mygdon
          Junior Member
          • May 2009
          • 90

          Comment

          • makedonche
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2008
            • 3242

            ...............mmmmm Bulgarian Intellectuals.......that seems to be a contradiction in terms!
            On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

            Comment

            • julie
              Senior Member
              • May 2009
              • 3869

              The walls are closing in, and Macedonia sits and waits, and waits, and waits..........
              for that magical moment, that they cease to exist from the blatant bullshit thrown around now buy the vulgars.
              I feel like throwing up, literally, its a black comedy, a farce and Gruevski smiles his pretty little boy smile and nods his head, is he going to negotiate with the vulgars too now??????
              "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

              Comment

              • MKPrilep
                Member
                • Mar 2009
                • 284

                including three Macedonian Bulgarians

                koj se ovie picki?

                Comment

                • George S.
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2009
                  • 10116

                  macedonia needs to assert itself more on the world stage otherwise you will get clowns mis-representing us it's abot time we stood & told them to get off.
                  "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                  GOTSE DELCEV

                  Comment

                  • Daskalot
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 4345

                    This is an attempt to appropriate all Macedonian lands by the Bulgars. If as they say that 'we' are the same, why should 'we' be divided.
                    This is highly offensive towards the Macedonian nation and people and needs to be dealt with appropriately.
                    Macedonian Truth Organisation

                    Comment

                    • Frank
                      Banned
                      • Mar 2010
                      • 687



                      This is the self centred view Tartars have of themselves

                      Comment

                      • Louis Riel
                        Member
                        • Aug 2010
                        • 190

                        YouTube - Ezekiel 25:17

                        Comment

                        • TrueMacedonian
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 3812

                          Bulgarian intellectuals ask UNESCO to stop Macedonia’s misappropriation of Bulgaria language, culture

                          Around 20 Bulgarian intellectuals, including three Macedonian Bulgarians, have sent a petition to UNESCO, asking the organisation to stop the misappropriation of the Bulgarian language, history and culture by Macedonia, Skopje-based Kanal 5 TV reports.
                          “The petition, addressed to UNESCO Director-General Irina Bokova, who is a Bulgarian, calls for actions and to stop considering the Bulgarian language in Macedonia as Macedonian language,” the television states.
                          “For 65 years now a lie is being spread throughout the world and it is that there is separate Macedonian language, history and culture. We will not hesitate to show the truth to the world. Vardar Macedonia (which is nowadays occupied by Macedonia) has always been a geographic term - indivisible from the Bulgarian culture and history. There are many historical facts, which confirm it,” the letter reads.

                          http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n240317
                          This is pathetic. This only creates more chauvenistic attitudes towards the Macedonian minority and Macedonians in general. Something me and George recently wrote about hits very close to home here. Especially at the end of the article:

                          AMHRC Spring Review 2010 - http://macedonianhr.org.au/06AHMRCReview/

                          Bulgarian National Myths
                          By Ivan Hristovski and George Vlahov


                          The negative attitude the government in Sofia manifests towards its minorities, especially the Macedonians, appears to be symptomatic of a xenophobia permeating Bulgarian society in general: from the average citizen to the highest official state levels. Bulgaria has persistently refused to recognize the existence of Macedonians within its borders. This is in line with a popular view held by all segments of Bulgarian society; namely that there is no such thing as a Macedonian nation, and that those who call themselves Macedonians (in an ethnic sense, including the Macedonians in the Macedonian republic) are nothing other than ‘lost’ members of the Bulgarian nation, inhabiting a territory that was unlawfully taken from Bulgaria in 1878, via the Treaty of Berlin (Engstrom, 2009: 80). In order to begin to develop an understanding of why Bulgaria has a chauvinist policy towards Macedonians and the Macedonian state, it would be useful to examine aspects of the cultural history of what became Bulgaria in 1878, prior to its independence.

                          Myths, Terminologies and Interpretations

                          Bulgarians pride themselves on the idea that their national “revival” began not with a gun but with a book. The book that is seen in Bulgarian nationalist mythology as the fountainhead of that process, is a medieval Bulgarian history written in 1762 by Father Paisii (Slavo-Bulgarian History of the Bulgarian Peoples), a monk in the Hilendar monastery in Mount Athos, one of the centres of Eastern Orthodoxy (Dimitrov, 2001: 8). But Father Paisii’s work only began to be disseminated in the mid 19th century and it should also be noted that illiteracy, at this time, was extremely high in the regions of the Ottoman Empire that were eventually to constitute Bulgaria. Thus, to describe Father Paisii as “the father of Bulgarian nationalism” is to engage in myth-making (Karpat, 2002: 467).

                          It could be argued that this is hardly a malevolent myth; however there are more serious problems connected to the Father Paisii myth as presented by the modern Bulgarian nationalist interpretation of his writing. Bulgarian academics and numerous others seem to accept without question that Paisii wrote an ethno- nationalistic Bulgarian history book to counter the supposed de-nationalising of Bulgaria, via Hellenistic nationalism. But as Detrez explains, it is actually not possible to accept this claim at face value:

                          “According to Paissi the Greeks are ‘wise and sophisticated’ but also ‘sly and proud’, they ‘take away from the simple people and appropriate unfairly’. Moreover they treat the Bulgarians with contempt considering them ‘simple and stupid’….. Paissi characterizes the Bulgarians as ‘hospitable and charitable’; they are ‘simple diggers, ploughmen, shepherds, and simple artisans’. To substantiate this claim, he refers to God who “loves the simple and harmless ploughman and shepherds more’. The two groups Paissi opposes to each other are not necessarily ethnic communities, but seem to be social classes and even professional groups in the first place: the Greeks were merchants and city-dwellers (both categories were often called ‘Greek’ in Bulgarian popular speech), while the Bulgarians are peasants.” (Detrez, 2008: 41-42)

                          In the light of Detrez’s observations, one must acknowledge that the social phenomena in question had more to do with socio-economic status, rather than the modern ethnic/national realm.
                          Another aspect of the national mythology propagated in Bulgaria today is the belief that throughout the Ottoman era there was a systematic process of “ethnic Greek” clerics converting “ethnic Bulgarians” into “ethnic Greeks”. However, these attempts made by the Orthodox Greek speaking Patriarchate church to spread Greek literacy to the illiterate masses, were not generally about creating ethnic Greeks – rather, they were about attempting to advance Orthodoxy via a semi-Westernised education (Detrez, 2008: 42).

                          Moreover, many people make the assumption that the terms “Bulgarian”, “Greek”, “Turk”, “Vlach” etc. possessed the same meaning during the time of the Ottoman Empire as they do today. However, at the time in question, these present day ethno-national labels were socio-economic/cultural categories, that numerous anthropologists and sociologists like Loring Danforth have described as a “cultural division of labour” (Danforth, 1995: 59). Many scholars agree that during much of the Ottoman Era a “Greek” was a merchant, a city-dweller, or someone well to do (Roudometof, 2001: 48). A “Turk” was someone who may have been a government official (Brown, 2003: 59). A “Vlach” might denote someone who is a shepherd (Detrez, 2003: 43) and a “Bulgarian” might be someone who is a peasant or labourer (Mackridge, 2009: 56), or a villager (Detrez, 2003: 43). This is how Paisii perceived people in his time.

                          Even more revealing is the substantial incidence of “Bulgarian” peasants actually pursuing “Greekness”, because this would signify an advance in their class status and wealth. If a “Bulgarian” managed to rise above his occupational peasant-farmer class status and become a wealthy city dweller, it was not unusual for him to then begin referring to himself as a “Greek” and to send his children to a Greek speaking school for the purpose of giving them the literacy/education he never possessed. What took place was not a change of ethno-national status, but of class (see for example, Amfiteatrov, 1990: 51-52).
                          Sociologically grounded etymological investigations like these outline a picture of life in the Balkans, very different to the one presented by ultra-nationalistic Balkan historians. For our present purposes, it is worth singling out Bulgarian historians for utilising centuries old traveller’s chronicles with references to inhabitants of various parts of the Balkans, including Macedonia, as “Bulgarians”; in a manner that deliberately ignores the socio-economic contextual meaning of the usage of the term “Bulgarian” and instead, reprehensibly ascribes to it, modern ethno-national connotations. Such misinterpretations serve to provide support in Bulgaria, for the fictional notion that Bulgarians possess an unbroken ethno-national identity continuity, extending back from the present to early Medieval times. Moreover, these distortions are also enlisted in aid of the myth that Macedonians have consistently been an integral part of the Bulgarian ethnos (Balikci, 2008: 178). This helps to illustrate that “historiography in Bulgaria is constituted within the context of a broad national agenda.” (Elenkov & Koleva, 2003-4: 183) Or in our words, Bulgarian historiography has been imbued with a serious dose of fiction in the service of sinister political ambitions and at the expense of genuine scholarship.

                          The complexity of the terminological issues we have been discussing is increased when we note that the terms under investigation were also to become entangled with rival religious denominations later in the 19th century, with the formation in 1870 of the Bulgarian speaking/literate Orthodox Exarchate church as an opponent within the Ottoman empire, to the long standing Greek speaking/literate Orthodox Patriarchate church. Furthermore religion was often used to identify people in a manner differently from and in some contradiction to the socio-economic/cultural categories we have been outlining. Throughout the Ottoman period a “Turk”, in the context of a discussion with someone possessing a religious outlook on life (and such were very numerous within the Ottoman Empire, for reasons soon to be given), referred to anyone who was a Muslim (Detrez, 2003: 43) and a “Greek” or “Rum” could mean someone who was an Orthodox Christian regardless of their language or class (Danforth, 1995: 59). The historian R.W. Seton-Watson wrote of “the ignorant Bulgar peasant, when questioned as to his nationality, would answer with the misleading confession that he was a "Greek." (Seton-Watson, 1918: 78) Again, the deceptive nature of the “confession” is understood only when it is pointed out that the ethno-national meaning that is today associated with the label “Greek”, did not generally apply for much of the duration of the Ottoman Empire. As we have been arguing, generalised primary identity markers appear to have been mostly underpinned by class and religion. It is not surprising that the “Bulgarian” peasant (Bulgarian in a socio-economic occupational/class sense or perhaps one could describe him as a Bulgarian speaking peasant, but not as an ethnic Bulgarian in the modern sense – it seems clear enough that such a notion was not present in his mind and that is what matters) replied that he was “Greek” - for, by this he meant that he was an Orthodox Christian and it is a perfectly understandable attitude for a resident of an empire that placed Muslims above Christians in numerous practical ways. In addition, the Ottoman authorities usually officially referred to all Christians as “Rum” or “Greeks”. Moreover, it is this attitude which explains the failure of some uninformed 19th century travel writers to detect the presence of “Bulgarians” in regions that later became an integral part of the Bulgarian state. Thus the writings of western tourist authors need to be used with a considerable amount of care – something that Bulgarian and Balkan historians in general, appear to consistently lack (Seton-Watson, 1918: 78). Notably, Seton-Watson also condemns the fact that “In the West there grew up the highly inaccurate habit of referring to all branches of the Orthodox or Eastern Church as "the Greek Church," and more than one distinguished historian and traveller was guilty of the most ludicrous errors.” (Seton-Watson, 1918: 22)

                          We are now in a position to better understand that it is not really possible to speak of the Hellenization of Bulgarians in an ethnic/national sense. During much of the Ottoman period, the labels in question were mostly underpinned by class and religion. The modern ethno-national project, among other things, has in the Balkans, generally been about taking some of these pre-Modern identity markers and converting them into ethno-national markers – which entails the creation of a state inhabited by an entire population that is unified in a manner that more or less transcends the limits of class and religion; a mass social grouping which feels it possesses a very strong identity, in spite of its very high division of labour. These are disturbing revelations for ultra-nationalistic Bulgarian (see Pilbrow, 2005: 129) and other proponents of myths asserting an ancient to modern essentialised ethno-cultural identity continuity.

                          Conclusion

                          At this point, some would no doubt like to assert that all social groups possess, need and maintain foundation myths. There appears to be some truth to this claim and be that as it may, it is not acceptable to maintain narratives with aspects which breed arrogance, hatred and the negation of others – especially minorities. Of the themes specifically mentioned in Bulgarian history textbooks today, the “national unification of the Bulgarian areas” (meaning Macedonia and adjacent land) remains a dominant theme. For example, in the 1992 textbooks it was mentioned seventy times versus only thirty for the 1991 textbooks. Other themes include “Greece's denationalization policy,” mentioned twenty-four times in 1991 and twenty times in 1992 etc. (Roudometof, 2002: 14). All of this is directly linked to the often intentional misinterpretation of the pre-Modern identity marker, “Bulgarian”.
                          The result is a perpetuation of Bulgarian chauvinism towards Macedonians which manifests itself by constant declarations asserting the Macedonian language to be a “Bulgarian dialect”; by consistent references to Macedonian history as “Bulgarian history” and to Macedonia as chiefly a “Bulgarian land”. Moreover, Bulgaria, an EU member country (and this tells us much about the EU!), does not recognize the existence of its Macedonian minority and inflicts upon it, a variety of other human rights abuses. Members and supporters of OMO "Ilinden" - PIRIN (a Macedonian political party and human rights organization operating in Bulgaria – which the Bulgarian state unlawfully refuses to register) have been harassed, beaten, fined and even imprisoned simply for asserting their Macedonian identity. This has to stop and ultimately, only an educational/cultural ‘sea-change’, facilitated by the Bulgarian state and academics, is going to ensure a relatively prompt end to the ethnic chauvinism and the development of a lasting reconciliation. 

                          Bibliography

                          Amfiteatrov, A. Land of Discord, Makedonska Kniga, Skopje, 1990 (Macedonian translation of the Russian original published in 1903).

                          Balikci, Asen. The ‘Bulgarian Ethnography’ of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences: Some Critical Comments, in Vintilă Mihăilescu, Ilia Iliev, Slobodan Naumović(eds.) Studying Peoples in the People’s Democracies II, Lit Verlag, 2008.

                          Brown, Keith. The Past in Question, Princeton University Press, 2003.

                          Danforth, Loring. The Macedonian Conflict, Princeton University Press, 1995.


                          Detrez, Raymond. Relations between Greeks and Bulgarians in the Pre-Nationalist Era: The Gudilas in Plovdiv, in Dimitris Tziovas (ed.) Greece and the Balkans, Ashgate, 2003.

                          - Between the Ottoman Legacy and the Temptation of the West: Bulgarians coming to terms with the Greeks. In Raymond Detrez, Barbara Segaert (eds.)
                          Europe and the historical legacies in the Balkans, P.I.E. Peter Lang, Brussels, 2008.

                          Dimitrov, Vesselin. Bulgaria: the uneven transition, Routledge, 2001.

                          Elenkov, Ivan & Koleva, Daniela. Historiography in Bulgaria After the Fall of Communism: Did “The Change” Happen?, Historein Volume 4, 2003-4.
                          http://www.nnet.gr/historein/histore...n4-elenkov.pdf,

                          Engstrom, Jenny. Democratisation and the Prevention of Violent Conflict, Ashgate, 2009.

                          Karpat, Kemal. Studies on Ottoman social and political history: selected articles and essays, Brill, Netherlands, 2002.

                          Livanios, Dimitris. The Quest For Hellenism, The Historical Review, Vol.3, 2006.

                          Mackridge, Peter. Language and national identity in Greece, 1766-1976, Oxford University Press, 2009.

                          Pilbrow, Tim. “Europe” in Bulgarian Conceptions of Nationhood, in Hanna Schissler, Yasemin Nuhoğlu Soysal (eds.) The Nation, Europe, and the World: textbooks and curricula in transition, Berghahn Books, 2005.

                          Roudometof, Victor. Nationalism, Globalization, and Orthodoxy, Greenwood press, 2001.


                          - Collective memory, national identity, and ethnic conflict, Praeger Publishing, 2002.

                          Seton-Watson, R.W. The rise of nationality in the Balkans, E.P. Dutton, New York, 1918.
                           
                           
                          Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                          Comment

                          • George S.
                            Senior Member
                            • Aug 2009
                            • 10116

                            When the bulgarians read that they have no history but tartaric they will be shocked & that they adopted the macedonian alphabet & language.They do speak macedonian with an accent.Any earnest student of history can find out the truth as to who is bullshitting as bulgaria thinks it has a right to the whole of macedonia.There is a saying you can run but you can't hide.
                            "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                            GOTSE DELCEV

                            Comment

                            • Makedonetz
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2010
                              • 1080



                              We have been for gruevski and Co to make some action but it shows they are just in it for their own political gain and exposure!
                              Makedoncite se borat
                              za svoite pravdini!

                              "The one who works for joining of Macedonia to Bulgaria,Greece or Serbia can consider himself as a good Bulgarian, Greek or Serb, but not a good Macedonian"
                              - Goce Delchev

                              Comment

                              • Pelister
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 2742

                                It begs the question why won't Gruevski open 'negotiatons' with the Bulgarians, I mean they have about as much a 'claim' to Macedonian territory as the New Greeks do which is to say they have zero rights to Macedonian territory.

                                Comment

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