Macedonia and Bulgaria: Political Relations

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  • Rogi
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 2343

    #61
    This is a modern version of the Bulgarian Exarchate's strategy.

    Comment

    • Prolet
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2009
      • 5241

      #62
      I have a friend who got a degree in a university in Sofia, she wanted to do a masters there however if she had of done that she had to say that she was Bulgarian so she came home straight away, they try to pressure whichever way they can and its very disappointing.

      Bulgaria is pushing at all costs, i cant understand how somebody can force anybody to change their nationality nobody can do that.
      МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

      Comment

      • sf.
        Member
        • Jan 2010
        • 387

        #63
        “Bulgaria is the only place in the world where we, the Macedonians, are not second-hand people,” says he. “Do you think I would have worked as a lawyer if I had migrated to Germany?”
        Hey arsehole, you declared yourself as Bulgarian! If you didn't, you wouldn't even have had the opportunity to be treated as a human being! Prodadeni predavnici!
        Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

        Comment

        • Jankovska
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 1774

          #64
          What are you all bitching about? Why don't you give up your Australian, Canadian, British, German citizenship, go back to Macedonia and try and support your family? Try that and than judge. You have no right to jugde. People need to find jjobs, make ends meet, they need to feed their families. While we are wasting billions in renovating a city like Skopje our Macedonians in Eastern Macedonia can not afford bread. You all sit here in great support of the gov bbut most don't support the poor person, the reality is that Macedonia has a lot of poor people, mainly in the eastern part, mainly Macedonians. Has anyone actually cared to help this people? No. So quick to judge.
          If I were in Macedonia stuck in a konfekcija with two kids and haven't been paid for months I would have taken the citizenship. You all expect the people of Macedonia to care about the country but not the country to care about them? Should work both ways. I would do anything to be able to feed my children and afford medical care for them. I don't care what that makes me. And I will be mad if someone from Australia or the UK or Canada thinks they have the right to judge me. Leace the Macedonians be. Everything is done for a reason. Maybe if the gov invested those 100 million euros to create jobs Macedonians will not be running away to Bulgaria, but no we are decorating Skopje. But it;s always the case, the poor pays twice and is always judged.
          Last edited by Jankovska; 02-05-2010, 06:42 AM.

          Comment

          • sf.
            Member
            • Jan 2010
            • 387

            #65
            Do you agree with the statement I have cited?
            Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

            Comment

            • fyrOM
              Banned
              • Feb 2010
              • 2180

              #66
              Jankovska you often post the sad poor Macedonian stories and you are probably showing your sympathetic side as undoubtable there are some poor people in Macedonia but it is the kind of dribble my parents fed me until I went to Macedonia.

              don’t you find it strange how poor people still travel to turkey or Greece for shopping or holidaying or ohrid for holidaying or hangout at the bars in their own city every night but somehow cant afford to have their home phone on or their electricity and water bills are months behind but they just make minimum payment just to keep it on. Then they tell you your just not a cojek if you don’t have a mobile and you have to go somewhere for your annual holiday and in turkey there’s better cheaper shopping never mind add the travel cost to the purchase price and of course your going to hang out at the kaficina every night what are you supposed to do stay home. it’s a matter of priorities not genuine hardship.

              When my parents wanted to pay off the mortgage they tried to get overtime and a few years we didn’t go on holiday and maybe didn’t spend as much on clothing that year but the fridge was always full. On the contrary your firstly thought of as some kind of freak by your own relatives if you spend what they think is a lot on shopping let alone the strange look you get from shopkeepers for buying 3x 2lt bottles of coke a 4lt tub of icecream and an assortment of biscuits. Maybe the look can partly be explained by the fact I later discovered that no one buys the 4lt tub icecream as everyone buys the 1lt and 2lt tubs and god knows how long the 4lt tubs been sitting in the store. You then read in the papers the government is concerned that Macedonians are not buying enough cars in Macedonia and there tax revenue is down as they are getting Bulgarian citizenship to buy a luxury cars because the tax there is so much lower. I have very little time for some of the sob stories from Macedonia. I don’t think someone like in the article who became a lawyer was truly hard up.

              don’t think im painting too dark a picture as I realise there are some Macedonian who are poor. I once saw an old man in what looked like old cloths rummaging through a dumpster and I felt so sad thinking is this what we’ve come to. I know there are some poor Macedonians deserving of our sympathy but I doubt they are the ones taking out Bulgarian citizenship.

              Comment

              • Jankovska
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1774

                #67
                It's very easy to think people are rich in Macedonia is you spend few weeks with them a year. And secondly people from the big cities like Skopje and Ohrid and Bitola are the ones who go on shopping trips to Greece and Turkey but as I have said before and no one here wants to put that in their heads is that Macedonia is beyond Skopje and Ohrid. I come from a poor city, I have been to many poor cities in Macedonia and I have seen how people live. That is one reason why I dislike Skopjani, they represent the wrong picture about Macedonians. The Macedonians who work the fields to survive, the mothers who work in konfekcii, the people borrowing 1000 to pay struja. The picture a tourist sees and the real one is not the same. I urge you all to spend long time in Macedonia, leave your pockets back home and try and make it. In Kriva Palanka unemployement is like 60% and all other cities around easter MAcedonia. This is a real problem, this is what the gov should be trying to tackle. Not spomenici in Skopje.
                Why do you think people in Macedonia are strbi na 30 god? Because they can not afford the dentist.
                My mother worked for 26 years and she was a tehnoloski visok. She never ever went on holiday. She doesn't have a penzija because she is 'too young'. She gets money from nowhere, not a single penny. But Grujo still expects her to pay all the bills, all his stupid taxes and the new ones he invented. She is an example, I can give you a zillion names of people I know who are in the same boat. Skopje i Skopjani are not Macedonia, we need to understand that before we try and explain it to the Greeks. Otherwise no wonder they call us Skopje, we make it out like is the country not just a city.

                Comment

                • Jankovska
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1774

                  #68
                  Originally posted by sf. View Post
                  Do you agree with the statement I have cited?
                  I think the guy is a joke. The fact that his parents could afford to pay for his law school in Sofia proves that he wasn't a poor kid so he didnt have to make that choice. But I do still stand by what I said, if I were poor with no options in Macedonia and I could use a Bulgarian passport to go to the UK to clean houses and feed my kids I will do it in a heartbeat and won't care about what the Macedonia diaspora think,. They have long left anywway, most for the same reasons.

                  Comment

                  • Prolet
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2009
                    • 5241

                    #69
                    Jankovska, So you think its ok to change your identity??? You are criticizing Gruevski for standing firm and not changing our name because apparently he is negotiating yet now you are stating that its ok to sign a document stating you are Bulgarian?? When you got your UK Passport did you sign a document stating that you are not Macedonian anymore that you are British? Our citizens in Pirinska Makedonija are being treated like Dogs worse then Tursko Robstvo yet they wont declare themselves to be Bulgarian, Whats the point of supporting them if you stand by that its OK to sign your identity away?

                    There are poor people everywhere its tough i agree with you, but its not always doom and gloom as you point out.
                    МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                    Comment

                    • Prolet
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2009
                      • 5241

                      #70
                      That is one reason why I dislike Skopjani, they represent the wrong picture about Macedonians
                      Oh Come On Jankovska do you honestly mean that?? Im a Skopjanec when have i offended you??? Infact i respect you, why are you acting like this??

                      Im sorry for your mother, i know its not easy for you the pension age for a woman in Macedonia is 62 years. I have family friends in MVR who have 40 years Stazh (Benificiran imaat tie) and they still wont give them a pension it is a problem i totally agree with you. I just cant understand why you take offense at everything?? Nobody is attacking you, there are problems i totally agree and its tough no doubt but i hope they will do what they promised and keep their promise.
                      МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                      Comment

                      • sf.
                        Member
                        • Jan 2010
                        • 387

                        #71
                        Originally posted by Jankovska View Post
                        I think the guy is a joke. The fact that his parents could afford to pay for his law school in Sofia proves that he wasn't a poor kid so he didnt have to make that choice. But I do still stand by what I said, if I were poor with no options in Macedonia and I could use a Bulgarian passport to go to the UK to clean houses and feed my kids I will do it in a heartbeat and won't care about what the Macedonia diaspora think,. They have long left anywway, most for the same reasons.
                        So if I think he's an arsehole, and you think he's a joke, why are you busting my chops on an internet forum?
                        Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)

                        Comment

                        • Jankovska
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1774

                          #72
                          Originally posted by Prolet View Post
                          Jankovska, So you think its ok to change your identity??? You are criticizing Gruevski for standing firm and not changing our name because apparently he is negotiating yet now you are stating that its ok to sign a document stating you are Bulgarian?? When you got your UK Passport did you sign a document stating that you are not Macedonian anymore that you are British? Our citizens in Pirinska Makedonija are being treated like Dogs worse then Tursko Robstvo yet they wont declare themselves to be Bulgarian, Whats the point of supporting them if you stand by that its OK to sign your identity away?

                          There are poor people everywhere its tough i agree with you, but its not always doom and gloom as you point out.

                          I got citizenship here because I was married here. If I had any ties family ties I would have got it on those basis. If i could make it up I could have done that too. Why is it ok for you to have an aussie citizenship, or German or British and is not ok for the poor Macedonians to have Bulgarian? I am not approving of this I am understanding and I know that if I had to choose I would have taken the citizenship myself, if I had to. I will not let my chidlren starve just to make few Diaspora Macedonians proud while they all have different citizenship and bread on their tables.
                          Omg Prolet this is why I find you annoying. You are comparing me to Gruevski? Do I lead the country? I am saying if I am poor and I could not provide for my family it;s survival, i would do it.
                          If I were Gruevski I would make sure no one has to do it. That is the difference

                          Comment

                          • Jankovska
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 1774

                            #73
                            Originally posted by sf. View Post
                            So if I think he's an arsehole, and you think he's a joke, why are you busting my chops on an internet forum?
                            Where? have a missed something?

                            Comment

                            • Jankovska
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 1774

                              #74
                              Originally posted by Prolet View Post
                              Oh Come On Jankovska do you honestly mean that?? Im a Skopjanec when have i offended you??? Infact i respect you, why are you acting like this??

                              Im sorry for your mother, i know its not easy for you the pension age for a woman in Macedonia is 62 years. I have family friends in MVR who have 40 years Stazh (Benificiran imaat tie) and they still wont give them a pension it is a problem i totally agree with you. I just cant understand why you take offense at everything?? Nobody is attacking you, there are problems i totally agree and its tough no doubt but i hope they will do what they promised and keep their promise.
                              And yet Gruevski can afford to spend 100 million on Skopje while Macedonians have no money for bread. The young are forced to declare themselves Bulgarian, the older don't have pensions even tho they worked to build that country and this little arsehole things money grows on trees? And you are standing here defending him?
                              You are more spoilt than the avarage Skopjanin I know

                              Comment

                              • fyrOM
                                Banned
                                • Feb 2010
                                • 2180

                                #75
                                Jankovska maybe my typing in English didn’t accurately convey my accent.haha I am not from Skopje and as the old joke goes you could ask half of Skopje which village there grandparents are from. Not to offend skopjani in general but I understand your point that sometimes some skopjani take city pride a bit too far.

                                My point was most of the people taking out Bulgarian citizenship are doing it for frivolous gain. The number of new and expensive cars with Bulgarian plates is in the many thousands and do I dare guess maybe as many as there are Bulgarian citizen holders just so they could make huge savings in car taxes. This is a low act in anybodies language and it also is the language the eu countries speak fluently and why offering us almost instant entry to eu and nato the moment a suitable compromise in the name issue can be found. They think if Macedonians are prepared to drop their daks and bend over for saving a few thousand euros in car taxes then why not put the hard word on them to change their name and identity and accept Albanian as an official language everyone is expected to know and use. Sound familiar to past news articles. This is the mentality of brutes. don’t think the west are so fare ahead of us in human development. To follow the analogy a step further even the brute can understand someone doing something they would not be proud of for the sake of feeding their family but the brutes just don’t care and hope the name issue will just go away. On the other hand no one least of all the brutes have any sympathy for someone doing the same act to save a few thousand euros on a brand new expensive car. It sends a clear loud message to the brutes in the eu and makes it harder for any decent person in the eu to support us.

                                Your taking about a multifaceted problem which needs a multipronged approach which I think first of which all Macedonians regardless of where they are in the world to put aside their bickering aside and use the intellect and skills to support the Macedonian government to win this name issue. It really is all our name which we want to say and use in the Diaspora. It is a sad fact everywhere in the world someone loosing their job in their 50s will have a much harder time finding work again even though they are too young for the pension. Different countries have tried to tackle this problem in different ways not all with the same success. I fell a little proud that in Australia such a person in their 50s can access unemployment benefits until they are eligible for the pension with much less stricture requirements for seeking employment as apposed to a younger person. We as individuals do not have the ability to solve Macedonia’s social security problems nor build roads and bridges ect but maybe we can affect the little things. Risto rightfully pointed out in a different thread maybe the Macedonian government can issue bonds which both Macedonians in Macedonia and the Diaspora can buy. Someone else pointed out we are kind of like Israel with wolves as neighbours and maybe the government can get some support from the usa and others and Diaspora can help by lobbying particularly on human rights issues but also we need to think how we can help the little people in Macedonia from going under or resorting to desperate acts while we are waiting for the name issue to be won.

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