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Old 09-22-2015, 07:41 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by George S. View Post
How can you compare gdp when the country is in huge debt and is facing bankruptcy.
Gdp means nothing if you can'r repay your debts.
The debt crisis is reflected in all economic & social data. Greek GDP was reduced by around 25% since the beginning of the crisis and a new recession is expected now. Population was also reduced, so GDP per capita falls in a slower rate. Also, a critical decision on deleting or restructuring part of the debt is to be taken in the next months.
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Old 09-22-2015, 07:45 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
The scaling up to account for population is the same as scaling down to per capita, its based on the same calculation. The point is simple, even though many of these countries are many times smaller, have high rates of social spending, have a fraction of the resources of the USA, they are disadvantaged in every aspect yet still do just fine economically.

You fail to address why they are not failing? According to you social spending brings less "freedom" and will crumble any economy to the depths of Balkan countries? Why isn't that happening to 7 of the top 10 wealthiest nations who are heavily socialized? You love to boil down an argument to one question, here it is. Explain to us why these countries are not being dragged down despite their socialistic ways?
Not only they're not going down,they're constantly up:





http://www.globalxfunds.com/GXF/IC
Abstracts from the link:
Quote:
...While Europe continues to
grapple with slow growth, high unemployment, and unsustainable sovereign
debt, the Nordic region has proven to be resilient to many of these issues.
The region has maintained fiscal discipline and stability by closely governing
its public finances, while still managing to provide high levels of social
welfare to its citizens...
• High Living Standards: The Nordic region is among the wealthiest in
the world. With an average per capita GDP (in real terms) of $48,320
in 2013, it ranked higher than the US ($45,863). In a report by the
World Economic Forum, the Nordic countries were ranked among the
top countries in education, training, labor market efficiency,
technological readiness, etc. (Source: World Bank 2014,
World Economic Forum 2014)
• Strong Credit: The Nordic countries have a considerably low level of
public debt. In the Nordic region, average government debt as a
percentage of GDP was 43% in 2013, as compared to 105% for the
US and 76% for the developed world in general. The region also
achieved a current account surplus of 5.6% of GDP. All four countries
were accorded the highest credit rating of AAA by S&P. (Source: IMF
2014, Standard & Poor’s 2014)
• Innovate Culture: Nordic economies have a strong culture of innovation.
They introduced the world to mobile networks in the 1980s, and the GSM
cell data standard in 1990s. Now, they are leading the way in employing
green technology to provide sustainable energy. The governments of
these economies employ a collaborative approach to funding green
investments by selling excess electricity capacity to the rest of Europe
(Source: Economist 2013, norden.com, 2013)
• Consumption and Export Driven Growth: The region’s diverse exports
are expected to increase in volume, by an average of 3.7% in 2015.
The region is also expected to benefit from increase in real income;
tax cuts combined with high consumer confidence in Denmark and a
stronger labor market, fiscal incentives and restrained price developments
in Sweden. Overall consumption is anticipated to grow by 1.6% per
quarter in Denmark, in 2014, and 3.5% year on year in Sweden in
2014. (Source: IMF 2015 estimates, Nordic Outlook, Danske Bank 2014)
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Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
How does Russia have more capacity for farming when most of its land mass is uninhabitable not to mention farmable? The USA has half a dozen different climates that you can grown almost anything on earth on. What can Russia grow wheat and potatoes, and ice? Russia has lots of energy and some minerals, but as a whole it is a dwarf to the USA. China for its size and population has a fraction of even Russia's natural resources. It has very little energy and a decent capacity for farming.
Actually,China imports Russian gas because of lack of resources and is Russia's second largest gas partner (after most of Europe,of course).

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Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
Oh and Qatar? Yes its pretty tiny, and has more oil per capita than any other country on earth. Take away the oil and they are Macedonia. Its not boo hoo, but you are trying to attribute luck with nature, to economic and social systems, you are the one trying to make a correlation between things that are unrelated.
And when there isn't oil (also Kuwait,the Emirates...),there is gambling (Monte Carlo/Monaco) or tourism (Andorra,San Marino...).
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Old 09-22-2015, 07:37 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
Oh Thomas.

The scaling up to account for population is the same as scaling down to per capita, its based on the same calculation.
There is a big difference between your 'scaling up' and wealth/GDP per capita. Your ‘scaling up’ is based on imaginary numbers and the assumption that the level of wealth would increase proportionately based on existing levels. You’re looking at an imagined population and an imagined wealth level based on an assumption that could be disproved by thousands of factors.

The per capital wealth/GDP levels are based on actual data. It’s the actual wealth/GDP level divided by the actual population to obtain a mean (or average) as an indicator. This is why economists use these indicators rather than yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
The point is simple, even though many of these countries are many times smaller, have high rates of social spending, have a fraction of the resources of the USA, they are disadvantaged in every aspect yet still do just fine economically.
Your original point was that the US is an economic basket case and that the Nordic countries are kicking its arse. In actual fact, the US is not a basket case and it outranks all Nordic countries except Norway on the standard economic indicators. And it kills (along with all other capitalist countries) current and former socialist states.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
You fail to address why they are not failing? According to you social spending brings less "freedom" and will crumble any economy to the depths of Balkan countries? Why isn't that happening to 7 of the top 10 wealthiest nations who are heavily socialized? You love to boil down an argument to one question, here it is. Explain to us why these countries are not being dragged down despite their socialistic ways?
Which seven of which top ten countries are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
How does Russia have more capacity for farming when most of its land mass is uninhabitable not to mention farmable? The USA has half a dozen different climates that you can grown almost anything on earth on. What can Russia grow wheat and potatoes, and ice? Russia has lots of energy and some minerals, but as a whole it is a dwarf to the USA. China for its size and population has a fraction of even Russia's natural resources. It has very little energy and a decent capacity for farming.
If you look at the link below, you’ll see that Russia and the US have comparable land sizes which is cultivated:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_u...ics_by_country

In fact, you could add Russia, China and India and they would far exceed the US in cultivated land area but still fail to get even close in wealth or GDP per capita. So, I really don’t see how land mass has all that much to do with potential for productivity, particularly given the very wealth city states we have. Its more about their economic/political systems and individual capability.

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Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
Hold on let me dig out my freedom meter so we can rank countries by freedomness, I think its measured in the unit BS, or as its know to common folk as bullshit.
Actually, freedom can and is measured by the types of laws and regulations countries have. It’s a very real and objective measure, particularly when a state can coerce an individual to do something or not to do something.

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Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
By the way your the one who brought up the figures, so dont get pissy with me that they dont prove what you thought they did. The only reason I scaled up the first chart is because it was visually misleading. Ranking the Nordic countries way bellow China. If you were to imprint that information on a bar chart or line chart it would look even worse, which is why I constantly warn you about statistics.
I think they show exactly my point – YOU we saying that the US is an economic basket case and that they Nordic countries are far superior. They clearly are not and they are clearly outranked by the US on the standard economic indicators.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
You fail to admit to what is the big elephant in the room, which is that the Nordic countries are quite socialist, quite stable, quite peaceful, and economically quite strong. All these facts go against your assertion that the sky will fall and we will eat stale bread if we strengthen social systems.
Have you now decided that the Nordic states are socialist? Until now you were claiming they were mixed sytems…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gocka View Post
Oh and Qatar? Yes its pretty tiny, and has more oil per capita than any other country on earth. Take away the oil and they are Macedonia. Its not boo hoo, but you are trying to attribute luck with nature, to economic and social systems, you are the one trying to make a correlation between things that are unrelated.
Did you forget about Singapore and Macau? Qatar is more than just oil – you should look into it. If it was just about oil, then there are plenty of other small countries with more oil and less people.
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Old 09-22-2015, 08:20 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by DraganOfStip View Post
Like I said,i didn't say it hasn't had it's fair share.
I don't think you read my posts correctly,I haven't denied that.
Having said that,from what you posted above,just a handful of those countries have less average salary than Macedonia.
Hell,even shitholes like Kosovo and Bosnia have salaries above Macedonian average,something that's very disappointing and sad to see.
What I was saying was that with the right people and right reforms countries have recovered quite well.
Something we're yet to see in our republic.
I was only trying to point out that even when looking solely at the average monthly wage as an indication of economic growth, only a minority of ex-socialist states can be relatively viewed in the positive. The majority based on this factor alone seem, perhaps somewhat “coincidentally”, to continue to fall within the same dismal category as Macedonia. Regardless, as I previously mentioned, and Risto pointed out, looking at average monthly salaries alone only provides a portion of the whole picture. I generally agree that with the right people, right reforms, along with a number of other factors such as right outlook and an engaged citizenry, recovery that benefits all can happen, however, out of all ex-socialist states, only a handful appear to have relatively done this, which means its something that we are yet to see in the majority of ex-socialist states not just Macedonia, which begs the question: why?
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Old 09-22-2015, 09:35 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
I was only trying to point out that even when looking solely at the average monthly wage as an indication of economic growth, only a minority of ex-socialist states can be relatively viewed in the positive. The majority based on this factor alone seem, perhaps somewhat “coincidentally”, to continue to fall within the same dismal category as Macedonia. Regardless, as I previously mentioned, and Risto pointed out, looking at average monthly salaries alone only provides a portion of the whole picture. I generally agree that with the right people, right reforms, along with a number of other factors such as right outlook and an engaged citizenry, recovery that benefits all can happen, however, out of all ex-socialist states, only a handful appear to have relatively done this, which means its something that we are yet to see in the majority of ex-socialist states not just Macedonia, which begs the question: why?
The other pertinent question is why ex-socialist states are even that far behind in the economic terms to begin with. The way socialists carry on here these countries should be soaring ahead while other countries are trying to catch up.
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Old 09-23-2015, 02:39 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by 777Bitola View Post
Because companies HAD to provide benefits and health insurance to anyone working at least 31 hours, regardless of weather they need it or not. This caused a lot of places to cut peoples hours working a weed by in half, I ended up working 40 hours a week down to 20 a week and it was by far the best job I've held.
Companies always seem to find a way to bend the rules without breaking them (or as we say in Macedonia "finding and exploiting the holes in the law").
In your case your employer reduced your working hours to avoid paying the health insurance,but legally speaking he can't be held liable.

In Macedonia things like these are common practice.
I don't know if any of you lived in MK during Yugoslavia,where people would get the popular K-15 (an extra wage in a calendar year,roughly calculated in the amount of the country's minimal wage).
This was overruled in the early 1990's until last year when it became mandatory again for the private companies,companies that wouldn't pay k-15 to their workers would be severely penalized.
Having in mind this is a very hard time for the Macedonian citizen where people are struggling to make ends meet ,this decision was gteeted with enthusiasm form all workers.
Some companies did pay their workers properly and I salute those who did so (after all,the best way to stimulate your workers to be happy and more productive is cash),but a significant number of them were finding ways to bend the rule and avoid that.

Some companies did pay the amount but ordered their workers to refund it personally the next day,those that didn't would be fired (and some indeed were).

Others were even more cunning.It is common practice here to pay a certain amount of the wage (say three quarters or more) on the workers' account and the rest in an envelope on-hand (this is undeclared cash to the authorities,or as we say на црно).
These companies stopped giving the envelopes and paid the full wage on the workers' account until the K-15 amount was reached.
Once that had been done,they continued with the old method,so in the eyes of the law,they had fulfilled their duty but in reality the workers didn't see a dime of their K-15.

Other companies would declare the holiday bonuses (christmas & new yar,easter etc) which were usually given in envelopes (again,на црно) as the K-15...

This year however after the boo-hoo's and complaints of the company owners the K-15 was converted from a "mandatory" thing to "recommended" thing,meaning that it's on a voluntary basis and no charges would be filed against companies that decide not to pay it.
It's always about profit,isn't it?
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Old 09-23-2015, 03:14 AM   #117
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I was of the firm believer to invest in Macedonia and Macedonia will be better for it.My relatives have said in any venture you start.There is no encouragement despite of what they say they will tax the shit out of you.You can't really prosper like that.
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Old 09-24-2015, 01:14 AM   #118
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Here's something that would totally work in the USA.
On the right you have a pillow colored in the colors of the Dutch flag,it costs 15 euros.
Then on the left you have the same pillow rotated in 90 degrees,thus becoming the French flag.It now costs 34,90 euros
The article has a satirical title "market economy".
This is Capitalism 101

http://off.net.mk/zezalici/foto/pazarna-ekonomija
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Old 09-25-2015, 02:32 AM   #119
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GDP chart of Nordic countries compared to other European countries (bottom 2 lines are not Nordic countries):



Quote:
The Nordic economies are among the countries in the Western World with the best macroeconomic performance in the recent ten years. Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden have for example experienced constant and large excess exports in recent years...
Over the past ten years, the Nordic countries had a noticeably larger increase in their gross domestic product (GDP) than the eurozone...
Measured by GDP per capita, the Nordic countries have a higher income than the Eurozone countries. Norway’s GDP per capita is as high as 80 per cent above the EA17 average, and Norway is actually one of the countries with the highest standard of living in the world..
Source: Haagensen, Klaus Munch (2013-11-27). Nordic Statistcal Yearbook 2013. Nordic Council. p. 99
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Old 09-26-2015, 05:45 AM   #120
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I think socialists talk about greed a lot, but forget that wanting other people’s property, whether its money or something else, is greed in and of itself.


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