Macedonian Truth Forum   

Go Back   Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian Truth Forum > News and Politics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-08-2015, 03:24 AM   #21
DraganOfStip
Senior Member
 
DraganOfStip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Malta
Posts: 1,253
DraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud of
Default

The Scandinavian economy model explained (note that Bernie Sanders is also mentioned in the article as one of the supporters of this system):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
__________________
”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
― George Orwell

Last edited by DraganOfStip; 09-08-2015 at 04:29 AM.
DraganOfStip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2015, 06:36 AM   #22
Vangelovski
Senior Member
 
Vangelovski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,402
Vangelovski is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DraganOfStip View Post
The Scandinavian economy model explained (note that Bernie Sanders is also mentioned in the article as one of the supporters of this system):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model
I'm not sure as to the accuracy of the figures from the Wikipedia article that Dragan provided, but this is insanity in practice:

Quote:
Sweden at 56.6% of GDP, Denmark at 51.7%, and Finland at 48.6% reflect very high public spending.
To the socialists on here, if you're into this sort of thing, why not just give me half your income and I'll spend in on your behalf and in your interest (as I see it). It would be much more efficient (and I'd probably be closer to the mark) than providing it to the state to spend on your behalf and in your interest (as it see's it). Ultimately, the state is nothing more than a bunch of un-elected and unaccountable bureaucrats who neither care about public spending or have any substantive knowledge about the allocation of funds for which they are responsible.

Alternatively, you could keep your own money (or as much of it as possible) and spend it yourself and in your own interest (as you yourself know it to be).
__________________
If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

Last edited by Vangelovski; 09-08-2015 at 09:45 PM.
Vangelovski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2015, 05:25 AM   #23
DraganOfStip
Senior Member
 
DraganOfStip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Malta
Posts: 1,253
DraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud of
Default

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact...e-sanders-hol/


__________________
”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
― George Orwell
DraganOfStip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2015, 07:33 AM   #24
DraganOfStip
Senior Member
 
DraganOfStip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Malta
Posts: 1,253
DraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud of
Default

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn....el-for-us-all/

http://www.economist.com/news/leader...ext-supermodel

https://www.hertie-school.org/filead..._papers/41.pdf
__________________
”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
― George Orwell
DraganOfStip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2015, 05:06 PM   #25
Risto the Great
Senior Member
 
Risto the Great's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Macedonian Colony of Australia
Posts: 15,096
Risto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
To the socialists on here, if you're into this sort of thing, why not just give me half your income and I'll spend in on your behalf and in your interest (as I see it). It would be much more efficient (and I'd probably be closer to the mark) than providing it to the state to spend on your behalf and in your interest (as it see's it). Ultimately, the state is nothing more than a bunch of un-elected and unaccountable bureaucrats who neither care about public spending or have any substantive knowledge about the allocation of funds for which they are responsible.
Is this fellow your twin?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M689xuNgJyA

The hilarious thing is that he works in a government department.
__________________
Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA

"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Risto the Great is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 08:00 AM   #26
Vangelovski
Senior Member
 
Vangelovski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,402
Vangelovski is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
Is this fellow your twin?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M689xuNgJyA

The hilarious thing is that he works in a government department.
You're meant to be an expert Chris, how much tax do you think we should pay? What proportion of your income would you say goes to the state?
__________________
If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
Vangelovski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 06:09 PM   #27
DraganOfStip
Senior Member
 
DraganOfStip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Malta
Posts: 1,253
DraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud ofDraganOfStip has much to be proud of
Default

Nevermind the Nordic system dudes,Nordic countries are nr 1 in metal bands per capita in the world.
How cool is that?

http://www.metalinjection.net/around...nds-per-capita

__________________
”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
― George Orwell
DraganOfStip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2015, 09:53 PM   #28
Risto the Great
Senior Member
 
Risto the Great's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Macedonian Colony of Australia
Posts: 15,096
Risto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond reputeRisto the Great has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post
You're meant to be an expert Chris, how much tax do you think we should pay? What proportion of your income would you say goes to the state?
I think we're not far off. Personal and corporate rates could come down by 5% and consumption taxes (GST) should also be levied on the exclusions that presently exist. The rate of GST could even come up a little.

But wasn't that guy above hilarious? Working for a government department and espousing capitalistic libertarianism.
__________________
Risto the Great
MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA

"Holding my breath for the revolution."
Risto the Great is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2015, 12:08 AM   #29
Gocka
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ohrid
Posts: 2,306
Gocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud ofGocka has much to be proud of
Default

Its when wealth becomes more and more consolidated in fewer and fewer hands. Every single economic system from human history has eventually crashed and erupted into violence when the wealth grew too large in too few hands.

The problem with full on privatization of everything can be summed up in one word; profit. Any private institution in order to exist needs to make a profit. This profit not only tends to make things more expensive but also prioritizes needs differently. For example, take American style healthcare. Doctor, insurance provider, and patient. The doctor must make a profit, the office the doctor rents must make a profit, the insurance company that pays for the services must make a profit, in the end the consumer the patient, pays for all the profit. The insurance companies may goal to pay out as little claims as possible, not to make sure you get the best care, or the fastest. The main goal of the doctor, is to see as many patients in as little time as possible, his main goal isn't to make sure you get the best care and most attention. In the end the patient pays a lot of money so that the middle man (insurance) makes a profit, the doctor makes a profit, and the patient gets hurried through the exam and then their insurance denies the claim because of some ridiculous stipulation you had no idea existed.

Your claim that the "government" cant possible allocate better where the needs are is flat out wrong. First of all the government isn't some rouge boogie man, it is comprised by the people and fulfills the will of the people so long as they are active in the process. A private institution can never prioritize better than the government because a private institution has one priority and one priority only, profit. As an accountant I can tell you that every single business decision boils down to one factor, and that is profit. If a company calculates that by reducing quality by X, they will lose Y amount of customers but reduce costs by Z, as long as Z is greater than Y, then X is irrelevant. If a company can calculate that dumping chemicals into the river will cost X in fines, and will cost Y in reputation (also monetized), and Z is why it costs to dispose of these chemicals properly, again as long as X plus Y is less than Z, then that is what you do. A private companies job is not to help society, or to protect the environment, its to make a profit. People who can not admit this are delusional.

My only problem with government is that it is not inclusive enough, it is not transparent enough, and it is to easily swayed by money.

Places where I like the government to take control are those that affect peoples basic needs, Food, shelter, education, health, and security. I dont care if if apples charges ridiculous prices for gadgets, I dont care if people use drugs. What I do care about is that everyone can see a doctor when they are sick without losing their shirt, that people dont starve or live on the street, that everyone has access to education without signing over their future. The only other place where I would want the government to intervene is environmental and labor issues. Someone has to protect the environment, that never goes hand in hand with profit. I think governments should impose strict labor laws, high minimum wages, strict caps on working hours, and mandatory vacations and maternity leaves.

I agree that government is inefficient, but that's because way to many people want it to be that way. You cant start out with the notion that no matter what you do, it will suck, and then be shocked when it sucks.

Conservatives hate to hear about Scandinavia, because it works, and they base their entire stock in the idea that government is bad and that privatization can solve every problem. Every worldwide poll taken always finds Scandinavia in the top few places in every category. Happiness, healthiness, standard of living, education, crime, poverty, cleanliness. I doubt you can find one study that finds Scandinavia is last in anything that can be considered good. Unlike a country like the USA which might be number one in average wages, but last in health, crime, depression, obesity, etc. This is what I meant by balanced.

Pure Capitalism will be just another failed system eventually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vangelovski View Post

You've presupposed that the "centralisation of wealth" (as you refer to it) is a bad thing. What exactly is that though - the centralisation of wealth?
Gocka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2015, 02:07 AM   #30
Vangelovski
Senior Member
 
Vangelovski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,402
Vangelovski is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Risto the Great View Post
I think we're not far off. Personal and corporate rates could come down by 5% and consumption taxes (GST) should also be levied on the exclusions that presently exist. The rate of GST could even come up a little.
What do you reckon about that Phoenix? Corporate taxes down, GST up!

How much would you put the GST up by Chris? And what would the net effect be? Would we be paying more tax or less?

I'm wondering the average proportion of an Australian's income paid in taxes is - including all direct and indirect taxes, such as income tax, GST, import duties, fuel excises etc etc? I have no idea how to even calculate that, but I would take a guess that its anywhere between 25 and 60 per cent, depending on your income. I take it other than those adjustments you mentioned, you think we've got it about right?
__________________
If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams
Vangelovski is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump