BREXIT - Britain will be out of the EU!

[Phoenix]

...No. What I am referring to is that a McDonald's employee flipping burgers should not be entitled to $15.00 an hour or $20.00 for the purposes of promoting fair wages. His job flipping burgers or selling food does not warrant such a high minimum wage. It takes little to no skill or education, and the only reason he is being awarded such a high minimum wage is because living off $8.00 an hour is not possible in society.

I think it's that viewpoint that has given rise to the populist movements that are shaking the western world at the moment.
This belief that the weak, the too young or the too old, the uneducated, the disenfranchised and the minorities have no right to share in the prosperity that their employers (and in many cases, their 'masters') enjoy.

I'm sure every burger 'flipper' and fast food employee working for a successful burger joint will rightfully claim that business success is due to their hard work, their adherence to strict processes and procedures, committing to the highest hygiene standards, quality control, high levels of customer service and the synergies of teamwork...a skill set, that's the bubbling cauldron and alchemy of business success at it's most fundamental level.
So why shouldn't those burger flippers be rewarded with a higher wage when they play an integral role in the success of that business?

It's that disconnect between the worker and the employer which creates the role for governmental or legislative intervention, to provide the social safety nets and to bring the wider social systems into some sort of meaningful equilibrium...in many western countries and all third world countries the scales are tipping exaggerated in favour of the elites...something needs to change before the tipping point that leads to massive social upheaval has arrived.

[Tomche Makedonche]

Nigel Farage addresses the European Parliament post Brexit

Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woaS1b_seEM

Part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-QRhp6H-4w

[Bill77]

I'm going to miss Farage and his laying the boots into the EU

[vicsinad]

Once they kick out the Poles from their country, everything will be perfect.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3662114/Reports-attacks-Poles-Muslims-wake-Brexit-vote.html

BBC presenter is called 'P***' on the streets as police probe racist attacks and calls to hate-crime hotline soar 60% in the wake of vote to leave the EU

Sima Kotecha was left in shock after being called a 'P***' in Basingstoke
Two Polish men were beaten to a pulp in Upton Park, east London
Polish community centre was vandalised in a suspected racist attack
Immigrants delivered cards reading, 'Leave the EU - no more Polish vermin'
Two men were arrested in Birmingham after a protest outside a mosque
Muslim Council of Britain has had 100 'hate crime' reports since EU vote

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/06/poland-shocked-xenophobic-abuse-poles-uk-160627105512611.html

Poland's ambassador in London has expressed shock and concern about what he said were incidents of xenophobic abuse directed against the Polish community following the UK's decision to leave the European Union.

Dozens of alleged racist incidents were reported to the police in parts of England over the weekend, including cases where Poles and other eastern Europeans were the victims of racial abuse.

In Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire, local media said police were investigating reports that signs reading "No more Polish vermin" had been distributed in the area, including outside schools, hours after the referendum's result - a 52 to 48 split in favour of Britain's exit - was announced on Friday.

In a separate incident in Hammersmith, west London, the front of a Polish cultural centre was reportedly smeared with offensive graffiti.

"We are shocked and deeply concerned by the recent incidents of xenophobic abuse directed against the Polish community and other UK residents of migrant heritage," Witold Sobkow, the Polish ambassador in London, said in a statement on Monday.

Sobkow said the embassy had been in contact with the "relevant institutions" and that police were investigating the Hammersmith and Huntingdon cases.

"We call on all Polish nationals who fall victim of xenophobic abuse and on all witnesses to report such incidents to local authorities," Sobkow said.

[Gocka]

Everyone knew this type of logic was a factor in why so many voted for brexit. Winning the vote only validated these radical retards views and emboldened them to take it to another level.

I fear the USA is heading down a similar path. I've lived in the USA most of my life and I can with out a shred of doubt say that xenophobia is on the rise. The anger is shifting from anti immigration to literally anti immigrant. Westerners had become accustomed to constant economic growth with increasing living standards, in the last decade or two it has stagnated and in some ways even went backwards. As history has shown us when whitey isn't dominating he gets angry and violent. As always the anger is always focused on those who are in some way different from the majority.

The stupidest part of this whole anti immigration movement is that these imbeciles, especially in the USA have no idea how their economy even works. 80% of the US economy is consumer spending, meaning most of the money is circulated within the country. The larger the population the more spending the more jobs that are created to service the new spending power. These idiots think that if they chase out all the Mexicans that white Americans will get all the good jobs back, like picking fucking strawberries for a dollar an hour. Or maybe they want "manufacturing" jobs so they can put together trinkets and compete with a Chinese worker making 10 cents an hour. These people are delusional and instead of trying to better themselves and improve their government and society, they scapegoat the poorest, hardest working, and most uninfluential people in their society.


Population growth is mandatory for a capitalist economy to function, not only do western European countries have negative birth rates, but now they want to close themselves off from the world which means a shrinking population and economy.

Once they kick out the Poles from their country, everything will be perfect.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3662114/Reports-attacks-Poles-Muslims-wake-Brexit-vote.html

BBC presenter is called 'P***' on the streets as police probe racist attacks and calls to hate-crime hotline soar 60% in the wake of vote to leave the EU

Sima Kotecha was left in shock after being called a 'P***' in Basingstoke
Two Polish men were beaten to a pulp in Upton Park, east London
Polish community centre was vandalised in a suspected racist attack
Immigrants delivered cards reading, 'Leave the EU - no more Polish vermin'
Two men were arrested in Birmingham after a protest outside a mosque
Muslim Council of Britain has had 100 'hate crime' reports since EU vote

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/06/poland-shocked-xenophobic-abuse-poles-uk-160627105512611.html

Poland's ambassador in London has expressed shock and concern about what he said were incidents of xenophobic abuse directed against the Polish community following the UK's decision to leave the European Union.

Dozens of alleged racist incidents were reported to the police in parts of England over the weekend, including cases where Poles and other eastern Europeans were the victims of racial abuse.

In Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire, local media said police were investigating reports that signs reading "No more Polish vermin" had been distributed in the area, including outside schools, hours after the referendum's result - a 52 to 48 split in favour of Britain's exit - was announced on Friday.

In a separate incident in Hammersmith, west London, the front of a Polish cultural centre was reportedly smeared with offensive graffiti.

"We are shocked and deeply concerned by the recent incidents of xenophobic abuse directed against the Polish community and other UK residents of migrant heritage," Witold Sobkow, the Polish ambassador in London, said in a statement on Monday.

Sobkow said the embassy had been in contact with the "relevant institutions" and that police were investigating the Hammersmith and Huntingdon cases.

"We call on all Polish nationals who fall victim of xenophobic abuse and on all witnesses to report such incidents to local authorities," Sobkow said.

[Risto the Great]

I've been wondering what mechanism will be used to kick out the EU zone immigrants in the UK. Interesting times ahead.

[Gocka]

I'd like to add something about the minimum wage debate.

In New Jersey the minimum wage is at $8.38 per hour, while the Federal minimum wage is $7.25.

$8.38 per hour equates to about $17,500 per year gross, but you have to pay mandatory payroll taxes of 7.65% and minimum federal income tax withholding of 10%, then are a few smaller taxes that equate to another 2% so your paycheck at maximum is 80% of the gross, that's $14,000 but their is also mandatory health insurance and after subsidies you still have to pay at least 2% of your gross pay towards the insurance premiums, which means your actual pay is at maximum 78% of gross or $13,650 or $1,138 per month. Rent in NJ for a studio (the smallest size apartment legally available), can range from $500 to $900 per month, and the $500 a month studio will be in a crack den in last years murder capital of the USA Camden NJ. So lets say you have no choice but to live in a crack den. that leaves you with $638 per month to live on after rent. Buying the cheapest lowest quality food that will give you diabetes and cancer will run you at least $160 a month for one person. Utilities will run at least $100 a month because of mandatory fees and surcharges that are not based on usage. To own a car NJ requires a yearly registration fee and mandatory insurance, minimum liability insurance and registration costs at least $70 per month. Gas for your car just to drive locally to work will be $50 a month. Just those few basics will leave you with only $250 a month for everything and anything else. A doctors visit is $100, your garbage insurance is catastrophic only so you pay out of pocket. How about internet, TV, a cellphone? Probably cant afford it.

Basically minimum wage is enough to rent a single room studio apartment in a crack den, drive a piece of garbage car with liability only insurance to work, have lights and running water, and eat garbage food. So what exactly is the point of a minimum wage? I would love to know what the legislature in NJ defined as "minimum" when they came up with the magic number. You know who should live in a crack den, A CRACK ADICT!

Don't want to live in a crack den? Then don't buy food and you can live in a single room studio in a marginally less sketchy city like Passaic.

So minimum wage guarantees what exactly? Why are we letting employers pay wages that aren't enough to live on, only to have taxpayers pick the tab later for food stamps and subsidized housing? This calculation is even worse in urban centers like NYC and LA. If the minimum wage isn't enough to sustain even a meager life with out further assistance, then what exactly is the purpose of imposing one at all?

[Phoenix]

Everyone knew this type of logic was a factor in why so many voted for brexit. Winning the vote only validated these radical retards views and emboldened them to take it to another level...

I think the anti-immigration element is given far too much credit as a reason for Brexit...it's a direct strategy to discredit all who voted 'Leave'...it's aim is to portray the 'Leave' camp as being ignorant, lesser educated, xenophobic, nativist, beholden to demagogues, to populist leaders and outright charlatans, pandering to isolationism and other nonsense.

It's a strategy crafted on the run, in response to so many of the 'elites', from establishment politicians, from the UK and internationally as well, from the likes of the IMF and other 'expert' global institutions all getting it so wrong...to all those forces, this was a black swan event of catastrophic proportions...'Leave' was an absolute disaster for the UK and global establishment...for the first time in a long time, the western masses are no longer as predictable as they once were...they're no longer listening to 'expert' opinion, this is putting western governments on edge.

Depending on the outcomes of upcoming elections in Europe and the US, if a pattern of establishment defeat continues we could be witnessing a new 'revolution' of sorts...the seeds of a 21st century version of the French Revolution could be in its infancy...after all, similar discontent abounds as it did in the 18th C...long raging wars, massive government debt, political instability, unpopular austerity programs and the rejection of the establishment elite...

[vicsinad]

I think the anti-immigration element is given far too much credit as a reason for Brexit...it's a direct strategy to discredit all who voted 'Leave'...it's aim is to portray the 'Leave' camp as being ignorant, lesser educated, xenophobic, nativist, beholden to demagogues, to populist leaders and outright charlatans, pandering to isolationism and other nonsense.

It's a strategy crafted on the run, in response to so many of the 'elites', from establishment politicians, from the UK and internationally as well, from the likes of the IMF and other 'expert' global institutions all getting it so wrong...to all those forces, this was a black swan event of catastrophic proportions...'Leave' was an absolute disaster for the UK and global establishment...for the first time in a long time, the western masses are no longer as predictable as they once were...they're no longer listening to 'expert' opinion, this is putting western governments on edge.

Depending on the outcomes of upcoming elections in Europe and the US, if a pattern of establishment defeat continues we could be witnessing a new 'revolution' of sorts...the seeds of a 21st century version of the French Revolution could be in its infancy...after all, similar discontent abounds as it did in the 18th C...long raging wars, massive government debt, political instability, unpopular austerity programs and the rejection of the establishment elite...

I think, in the end, what you have said is the minority argument for people leaving the EU. I think immigration was a huge contributor to the decision to leave. Even if it is the minority argument, it still leaves another significant minority who are fueled by hate, xenophobia or something else that's not so nice.

We can use my personal knowledge of Trump supporters as an example. I know a lot of them. In public groups, they use all those populist arguments. It's funny, though, that all these people (that I know) are the same people who only last year had nothing nice to say about blacks, Mexicans and Muslims; and most have had nasty things to say about them. But when in a group political debate? "Immigration policies are hurting our economy" and nothing about how they've previously said "Spics are dirty" and "blacks are lazy" and "Muslims are the worst people in the world." If even a fraction of UK's voters have any correlation to some Trump supporters in their outlook, then that's enough to tip the scale.

I just don't buy that, without xenophobia and hate, that the Leave Campaign would have won. I'm not saying this to disagree with the genuine arguments for leaving that are valid and perhaps do outweigh the genuine reasons for staying. But it's the way I see it.

[Gocka]

I don't believe nor did I say the entire leave camp was xenophobic, I don't believe even a majority are. That being said I do believe a significant minority wanted brexit for purely xenophobic reasons. It was this element I was referring to. The ones who were xenophobic will be emboldened because the leave camp was painted as vastly xenophobic, so the ones who really were xenophobic will think they are the majority and push the limits.

As things unfold I think we are seeing that a lot of people didn't know why they voted to leave, so it may very well be that they voted to leave because they just wanted to go against what their government and media told them to do.

Also the thing that worries me is that you don't need a vast majority of lunatics to cause chaos. A sizable minority can do a lot of damage, just look at ISIS and the like.

I think the anti-immigration element is given far too much credit as a reason for Brexit...it's a direct strategy to discredit all who voted 'Leave'...it's aim is to portray the 'Leave' camp as being ignorant, lesser educated, xenophobic, nativist, beholden to demagogues, to populist leaders and outright charlatans, pandering to isolationism and other nonsense.

It's a strategy crafted on the run, in response to so many of the 'elites', from establishment politicians, from the UK and internationally as well, from the likes of the IMF and other 'expert' global institutions all getting it so wrong...to all those forces, this was a black swan event of catastrophic proportions...'Leave' was an absolute disaster for the UK and global establishment...for the first time in a long time, the western masses are no longer as predictable as they once were...they're no longer listening to 'expert' opinion, this is putting western governments on edge.

Depending on the outcomes of upcoming elections in Europe and the US, if a pattern of establishment defeat continues we could be witnessing a new 'revolution' of sorts...the seeds of a 21st century version of the French Revolution could be in its infancy...after all, similar discontent abounds as it did in the 18th C...long raging wars, massive government debt, political instability, unpopular austerity programs and the rejection of the establishment elite...

[Gocka]

I live in another state which is quite diverse and I have to say my experience is exactly the same. A lot of these people had these feelings and tendencies before but now they have a platform that legitimizes their feelings and attaches it to something bigger, so that its not just misguided hate, now its patriotism, or going against the establishment. Its not all Trump supporters, but people naively ignore how many of his supporters are blatant racists. ISIS, the KKK, and the NAZIS were all small minorities within their general populations but they still caused chaos.

We can use my personal knowledge of Trump supporters as an example. I know a lot of them. In public groups, they use all those populist arguments. It's funny, though, that all these people (that I know) are the same people who only last year had nothing nice to say about blacks, Mexicans and Muslims; and most have had nasty things to say about them. But when in a group political debate? "Immigration policies are hurting our economy" and nothing about how they've previously said "Spics are dirty" and "blacks are lazy" and "Muslims are the worst people in
the world."
.

[vicsinad]

A lot of these people had these feelings and tendencies before but now they have a platform that legitimizes their feelings and attaches it to something bigger

Exactly this.

The Irish and then the Polish, Italians and the Jews were supposed to have changed the US to a basket of filth. The US has plenty of internal issues, but the presence of Irish, Poles, Italians and Jews have nothing to do with it.

[Phoenix]

I live in another state which is quite diverse and I have to say my experience is exactly the same. A lot of these people had these feelings and tendencies before but now they have a platform that legitimizes their feelings and attaches it to something bigger, so that its not just misguided hate, now its patriotism, or going against the establishment. Its not all Trump supporters, but people naively ignore how many of his supporters are blatant racists. ISIS, the KKK, and the NAZIS were all small minorities within their general populations but they still caused chaos.

I don't believe that it's a Trump phenomenon alone...the Trump supporters that you describe are actually the GOP supporter base and it can be clearly separated into 3 main camps:
1. The 'elite'
2. The Christian fundamentalists
3. The racists

Trump has quite skilfully positioned himself and secured the support of 2 of the above groups and a pretty good portion of the 'elite' grouping as well.
The Donald has got the racists firmly on side with his talk about building walls, getting rid of Mexicans, stopping Muslim immigration and the like...he panders to the Christian fundamentalists by supporting anti-abortion and threats of incarcerating women who have abortions. He clearly has some of the 'elites' in his camp simply by being their presumptive candidate.

The racist group has always been a subculture in America, I think it's wrong to put the blame squarely on them without looking at the underlining structural issues represented by the failings of globalisation, the massive wages disparity and the rapid erosion of egalitarian ideals

[Risto the Great]

I find it a little hypocritical if we point the finger at the Brits for leaving and then advocate Macedonia never joins. The reasons for leaving are justifiable for reasons beyond racism.

[Gocka]

I actually agree with your statement. I am not blaming Trump for the racist tendencies, he's not creating racists, all I am saying is that they haven't had a public mouthpiece in a long time. I can see it unfolding around me, most of these people were closet racists all along, but now they feel bolder, they say things out loud that they only thought to themselves before. When you attach these people to a larger movement with out denouncing them, you risk making them think they are 1. right 2. supported 3. free to act on their feelings. The US has had problems with racism from day one, As Vicsinad eluded to above. Every generation had a scape goat, Jews, Italians, Poles, Catholics, Irish, Blacks, Mexicans, Gays, Muslims. At one point or another these groups were the scum of the earth and weren't "American" enough. We can't change a racist just by keeping them in the closet, but you also have to be careful not to legitimize, because these types of things tend to have a snowball effect to them.

I don't believe that it's a Trump phenomenon alone...the Trump supporters that you describe are actually the GOP supporter base and it can be clearly separated into 3 main camps:
1. The 'elite'
2. The Christian fundamentalists
3. The racists

Trump has quite skilfully positioned himself and secured the support of 2 of the above groups and a pretty good portion of the 'elite' grouping as well.
The Donald has got the racists firmly on side with his talk about building walls, getting rid of Mexicans, stopping Muslim immigration and the like...he panders to the Christian fundamentalists by supporting anti-abortion and threats of incarcerating women who have abortions. He clearly has some of the 'elites' in his camp simply by being their presumptive candidate.

The racist group has always been a subculture in America, I think it's wrong to put the blame squarely on them without looking at the underlining structural issues represented by the failings of globalisation, the massive wages disparity and the rapid erosion of egalitarian ideals

I think we are in between a rock and a hard place. As far as the reasons the leave vote won; polling showed that the number 1 reason people were leaning toward leave before the vote, was the promise that the UK would have more control over its Immigration policy. The vast majority weren't against the free flow of goods, the cooperation on security, the negotiating power of a single block, the ability for Brits to travel freely around Europe. The only real problems they had with the EU was control of monetary policy (average people don't know what that means), the free flow of people from Europe to the UK (mainly Bulgarians and Poles), and the contributions that had to be made to the EU (understandable). We can sit here and pretend it was about sovereignty, but I think the average person is completely ok with being someone's bitch as long as they are ok economically. It was mostly about immigration. Now lets be clear of that majority that voted leave in order to keep out immigrants, only a minority did so because they genuinely hate immigrants, the vast majority are convinced that although these immigrants aren't bad people, they are hurting the average native Brit economically, and thus they need to go. I wouldn't call the former racism, but lets be honest its not exactly enlightenment either.

As far as Macedonians are concerned, the UK is not a good example, It was a large influential country within the EU that still had quite a bit of sovereignty. If Macedonians want examples of why not to enter the EU then they need to look no further than their immediate neighbors. Bulgaria, Greece, Slovenia, and Croatia all lost a lot of sovereignty, and are economically worse off. The only benefit they had was their citizens could go work in England and Switzerland, which they may not be able to do anymore. Half of Bulgaria moved to England, what happens to them now? If Bulgaria was hurting before what happens when all those emigrants come back and need to find work in Bulgaria?

The reasons are justifiable beyond racism, but I think we are filling in the blanks to justify it for our own purposes, while the people who actually voted, did so for very different reasons.

I find it a little hypocritical if we point the finger at the Brits for leaving and then advocate Macedonia never joins. The reasons for leaving are justifiable for reasons beyond racism.