"Prior to 1865, Vlachs everywhere in the Peloponnese"

[tchaiku]

Thanks, np.

"So, in 1810 the Armani-Vlachs of Macedonia, Albania, Epirus, Thessaly, Central Greece, Peloponnese (without islands) surpass 700,000 inhabitants, amounting to 37% of the total population of Greek territories."

Source? I have a belief that due to massive Aromanian population, many Albanian were assimilated in Vlachs.

What about the percentage of Albanians? Who was more numerous Albanians or Slavs?

[Carlin]

Source? I have a belief that due to massive Aromanian population, many Albanian were assimilated in Vlachs.

What about the percentage of Albanians? Who was more numerous Albanians or Slavs?

Source is Page 161 of the book ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΟΒΛΑΧΟΙ (ΑΡΜΑΝΟΙ) (ΠΡΩΤΟΣ ΤΟΜΟΣ), by ΕΞΑΡΧΟΣ ΓΙΩΡΓΗΣ.

For the Albanians/Albanian-speakers:

"So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19)."

Links:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=846

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AArvanitic_language%2FArchive_1

The Albanian-speakers were certainly way more numerous than the Slavophones.

In the book Les Tzacones, by Stamatis C. Caratzas, I found something that I already shared on this forum previously, but am repeating it here: C. N. Sathas used written testimonies to support that the Slavs never arrived in the Peloponnese and hide under their name Vlachs.

As I am already repeating myself, let me demonstrate that an existence of a "Vlachia" / "Volchia" in Peloponnese (namely Arcadia) can be found in primary sources. From Les Tzacones, by Stamatis C. Caratzas - we see Footnote 191, Page 120 --> APUD VOLCHIAM ET ALIAS ARCADIAE ET ROMANIAU PARTES.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=i_vafS-PiDoC&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=apud+volchiam&source=bl&ots=zwrQQFwqYc&sig=S8VLV0lHTo92HvwovrR469qKQfg&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjL37W_7pPTAhVs9YMKHSuRDuEQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=apud%20volchiam&f=false

Page 120 Summary and Translation:

- Chalcocondyle said that Vlachs were settled in Laconia, on the Taygetos and peninsula of Tenarion.
- In a petition of the inhabitants of Monemvasia, dated 1527, it is said that the Vlachs (Vulachi) have become accustomed to graze their cattle every winter in their territories; which confirms the testimony of Chalcocondyle the site of the settlement.
- In the Frankish era, we have the testimony as shown above: "Apud Volchiam et alias Arcadiae et Romaniau partes".
- On the page 120, there are numerous toponyms listed which contain the term "Vlach" in it. [Again, this only refers to toponyms with the term "Vlach" in it. In the footnotes of page 121, there are additional such toponyms provided from the following regions and areas of Peloponnese: Olympia, Pylia, Triphylia.]

Page 121 Summary - footnote 197:
- The probable areas of Vlach settlement must be Gortynia and Laconia in the Peloponnese. Philippson admitted as probable settlement of Vlachs in the Peloponnese, without being able to specify neither date nor place of origin.

Page 122 - Top:
"Il est maintenant tres probable que les Valaques ont ete installes dans la Peloponnese." --> It is now very likely that the Vlachs settled in the Peloponnese.

Furthermore, I haven't provided additional translations from this book, but there is an Athonite legend (legend from Holy Mountain/Mount Athos), as well as medieval Imperial Chrysobulls which indicate that these Peloponnesian Vlachs were originally living in southern Macedonia, very close to Mount Athos -- and were expelled and transferred from these areas to Peloponnese (namely Tzaconia), most likely by Alexios I Komnenos. The interesting thing is that this is a book about Tzaconians, and the author Stamatis C. Caratzas, has demonstrated that "Tzaconians" were also transferred to the Peloponnese (Tzaconia) from Macedonia, around the same time and from the same districts as the Vlachs.

On Page 126 we read of "a relationship" between Tzaconians and Vlachs:

"Deux indications militent pour l'existence d'un rapport entre les Tzacones et les Valaques dans la poesie populaire." --> "Two indications argue for the existence of a relationship between Tzacones and Vlachs in popular poetry."

My ramblings on this can be found here (with screenshots), page 5 of this same thread:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6633&page=5

[Carlin]

http://www.biblionet.gr/book/199485/%CE%A0%CE%B1%CF%83%CE%B1%CE%B3%CE%B9%CF%8E%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82,_%CE%9D%CE%AF%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%82/%CE%91%CE%BD%CE%B5%CE%B2%CE%BF%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%B5%CE%B2%CE%AC%CF%84%CE%B5%CF%82

http://www.bookworld.gr/gr/book/bkid/196734/anebokatebates

https://www.arkadiapress.gr/%CE%B9%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B1/15268-%CF%84%CF%83%CE%BF%CF%80%CE%AC%CE%BD%CE%B7%CE%B4%CE%B5%CF%82-%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%AF%CE%B1%CF%82-%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B1-%CF%87%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%AC-%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%BC%CE%B5%CF%83%CF%83%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1%CF%82.html

Book Ανεβοκατεβάτες by Πασαγιώτης Νίκος.

Reproduced from the newspaper "Arcadian Horizons"
Vlachs and Arvanites in Morea
From the book "ANEVOKATEVATES", by Nikos Pasagiotis

The following is Google Translation, so it's not good:


Those of the shepherds/pastors of Sterea (Central Greece) reached Morean mountains, so we call them Tent-dwellers and Roumeliotes, partial and at times, even with the support and tolerance of the authorities trying and promote from the north to Moria that gladly accept each descent of foreign populations. Most of them have as a base to Arcadia...

Indeed, the current masters of Moria protected by the law shepherds because their livestock were essential to their national economies. And foreign growers gave them fields and some protection until they take root, because the place was in need of cultivation. Even the Byzantines to get rid of the uprising of Vlachs of Thessaly and the Samarinas encouraged to migrate down and surrender their pastures. So from their summer haunts, taking the downhill for Livadiotopi Corinthia, Argolida, Achaia and more people of Messinia, which for them would narrate below, to show in my book Vlach pastures of Messinia.

Vlassis or Vlasseika: The name owes to Gerovlassi and founder of this great family. It is said that he left Vlassis new from Arcadia because thrash a Turk who wanted to challenge his sister Catherine. He arrived in Militsa and later a softer place, building the tsopanochori Vlasseika. The Vlassis except tsopaniliki, worked in mills and beehives. Similarly Balodimeika villages Boureika, Katsireika, Blanaiika, Tsoneika, Vlach huts Yalova, Tsichleika, Livadaki, Pidasos, Arapolaka, hardtack and all the villages of Lykodimou the colonized Vlach shepherds from Lykochia villages flows, Bartzeli, Vidi, Arkoudorema , Stemnitsa Arcadia.

[tchaiku]

I thought Corinthia and Athens were populated by Albanians?

[tchaiku]

George Finlay - MID 19TH CENTURY

In the Peloponnesus they are still more numerous. They occupy the whole of Corinthia and Argolis, extending themselves into the northern part of Arcadia and the eastern part of Achaia. In Laconia they inhabit the slopes of Taygetus, called Bardunia, which extend to the plain of Helos, and, crossing the Eurotas, they occupy a large district around Monemvasia to the south of the Tzakonians, and to the north of a small Greek population which dwells near Cape Malea, in the district called Vatika. In the western part of the peninsula they occupied a considerable part of the mountains which extend from Lalla to the northeastern corner of Messenia, south of the Neda. Besides these large settlements, there are some smaller clusters of Albanian villages to the north of Karitena, and in the mountains between the Bay of Navarin and the Gulf of Coron. The islands of Hydra and Spetzas were entirely peopled by Albanians.


Edmond About - MID 19TH CENTURY

During the mid 19th century, Edmond About wrote that "Athens, twenty-five years ago, was only an Albanian village. The Albanians formed, and still form, almost the whole of the population of Attica; and within three leagues of the capital, villages are to be found where Greek is hardly understood .........Albanians form about one-fourth of the population of the country; they are in majority in Attica, in Arcadia, and in Hydra...."

Contradicts?

[Carlin]

@tchaiku

1. I thought Corinthia and Athens were populated by Albanians?

They were - but there were also other elements.

2. Contradicts?

I am all about contradictions. : )

How about this one? The source is A Journey Through Albania, and Other Provinces of Turkey in Europe and Asia - By John Cam Hobhouse Broughton, and the pages are 490 & 491.

490 --> "The language of these peasants is a dialect of that spoken by the Albanians of Epirus; and as I was not aware, during my stay in Attica, of the fact mentioned by Wheler, that they call themselves Vlachi, I saw no reason for supposing them emigrated Wallachians, and descendants of those Roman colonists of Dacia..."

491 --> "Wheler's words are as follows: "After this we began again to ascend; and at last went up a rocky hill, by a very bad way, until about noon we got to the top of it, to a village called Vlachi, which is the name the Albaneses call themselves by in their own language. If the English traveller be correct, not these villagers only near Mount Parnes, as Mr. D'Anville has it, but all the Albanians, call themselves Vlachi; and the quotation proves nothing at all, except, indeed, that Wheler himself evidently supposed the people in question to be Albanese."

Moreover (and this may not apply to this specific thread), but on pages 491/492 we read: "The country inhabited by the southern Valachi, properly so called, is composed of the contines of Macedonia, Thessaly, and Epirus; comprehending Edessa, Castoria, as well as Larissa, Pharsalia, in the low grounds of Thessaly..."



All the Albanians, call themselves Vlachi?

[tchaiku]

^What are your thoughts?
Could it be Byzantine=Romanoi=Vlachi?

Or those were Vlachs albanian speakers?

[Carlin]

^What are your thoughts?
Could it be Byzantine=Romanoi=Vlachi?

Or those were Vlachs albanian speakers?

Tchaiku, it is possible. Based on the evidence I have seen so far I believe (and have already argued elsewhere on this forum) that indeed Byzantines=Romanoi=Romaioi="Vlachi"=>Modern Hellenes. I may be completely wrong! I do not claim to possess or know the truth, but some facts and testimonies are rather stunning and so obvious, that it's hard to pretend or argue otherwise. It is also possible that some of the Vlachs were Albanian-speakers (or vice versa, anyway there was a lot of mixing).

However, it is difficult to know and assert anything with certainty when it comes to almost any corner of the Balkans. Unfortunately, the foreign travelers and visitors have left us, at best, contradictory accounts and use terminology and names that leave us (us proud internet warriors of the 21st century) confused and deranged.

FYI - Although below link may have nothing to do with this specific thread I do believe it is related just to illustrate a point. It also comes from a modern Greek source.

Did you know that E. Venizelos, formed an official commitee in order to rename the villages of Peloponnese (as they all had names which were of non-Greek origin). For example in 1931, the Gortinian village Dragomano changed its name to Kotilio! From 1931 - 1933 all the villages of Arcadia changed their names. Every single change was published as a law of the Greek State:

"What were the criteria of choosing a new name for a village? First of all the ancient Greek history of the place, IF it existed any. For Arcadia, the "Guide to Greece" of Pausanias was the only (but great) help. For some cases the identification was not difficult. It was easy to match Tsipiana to Nestani or Dragomano to Kotilio. If they hadn't such a clue they translated the turkish or slavonic name to Greek! Arachova in slavonic means nut tree so, it turned into Karyes (nut tree in ancient Greek)! Or they picked up a name related to the Greek Orthodox Church, as Giousi to Paragitsa.

Some other examples of Arcadian villages, whose names have been changed are: Ahouria (turkish name) turned to Stadion (Tegea), (I)Braimafenti (turkish name) turned to Episkopi (Tegea), (O)Martsaousi (turkish name) turned to Akra (Tegea), Piali (turkish name) turned to Alea (Tegea), Zeli turned to Kandalos (Tegea), Kapareli turned to Manthirea (Tegea), Glanitsia turned to Migdalia (Gortinia), Bedeni turned to Skopi (near Tripolis), Bezenikos turned to Blaherna, Granitsa turned to Nymphasia, Karnesi turned to Prassino, Toposta turned to Theoktisto, Kerpini turned to Monastra, Gartzenikos turned to Elati and Glogova turned to Drakovouni.

This is the brief story of the"lost" villages!"


The Lost Villages of Arcadia

http://arcadia.ceid.upatras.gr/arkadia/engversion/history/lostvillages.html

[Carlin]

It appears that Mani/Maina may have started originally as a Roman outpost/castle and settlement -- it was established by Justinian I, who reigned 527-565.

1) The Maini Castle, by Mihalis Grig. Batsinilas

Some keypoints:
- "When Justinian built his castle..."
- "... the protection of land and sea trading routes was one of Justinian's main reasons for building the castle."
- "In 1250, the castle that Justinian built 700 years before was just a small and weak fort facing the ironclad Franks, who conquered it..."

2) Athens and Southern Greece, Dana Facaros & Linda Theodorou

Page 413: "Tigani's imposing castle was the famous Byzantine Castle Maina and quite a place in its heyday. It may have been started as early as the 6th century by Justinian."

[Carlin]

[Carlin]

Mani Voice

http://manivoice.gr/content/h-%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%80%CF%89%CE%BD%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AE-%CE%BA%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AC%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BE%CE%B7-%E2%80%90%CE%BF%CE%B2%CE%B1-%E2%80%90%CE%BF%CE%B2%CE%BF-%CF%83%CE%B5-%CE%BC%CE%B5%CF%83%CF%83%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1-%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%B9-%CE%BB%CE%B1%CE%BA%CF%89%CE%BD%CE%AF%CE%B1

Regarding the toponyms in Messinia and Laconia that end in -ova, -ovo

Since three important toponyms of the Peloponnese: Arachova, Arachova and Akova mentioned in the "Chronicle of Morea" - which are extensively mentioned in the next chapter - have Latin (Vlachian) and not Slavic origins, lead us to the conclusion that in the Peloponnese there were Vlachs well before the 13th and 14th century, and well before the Fourth Crusade.

It is possible that the Vlach nomads of Epirus (North and South) and central Greece arrived in the Peloponnese in waves from the 8th century - a time when the Slavic tribes did, in fact, appear in Morea - until the 12th century, to cover the population gaps created by the plague that occurred there at the beginning of the 8th century, as well as the accumulated hardships of the previous epochs.

After the brief introduction there follow numerous toponyms and their explanations - such as Anastasova, Gialova, Arachova, Zitsova, Isova, Tsekova, Dihova, Nikovo, and others.

[Carlin]

AN CEMAAT-I EFLAGAN



The above picture is derived from the study by N. Beldiceanu and I. Beldiceanu-Steinherr, Recherches sur la Moree (1461-1512), published in volume 39 of the Südost-Forschungen Internationale Zeitschrift für Geschichte, Kultur und Landeskunde Südosteuropas (Version: 1980).

In the yellow-marked text we read the first sentence:

In a record of the titles dated 19/12/1514, the village of Potamia (in the area of Kalavrita) is recorded with inhabitants from the Vlach community [coming from the gemaat-i Eflaqan].

[tchaiku]

>Always in the late 12th century Kontostephanos was hunting "barbarian Vlachs who payed no taxes" through the mountains of Greece.

When describing Epirus around 1400, Isidore of Kiev writes that only the coast and the major 2 cities of Epirus have 'Hellenic' culture. The rest is inhabited by barbarians (Vlachs, Slavs, Albanians) and he names the Albanians because they were the less civilized of the barbarians.

In the mid-14th century Despot Theodore of Morea (Peloponnese) accepted 10.000 Albanian families (40.000 persons?) in Peloponnese in order to counteract the depopulation caused by the Black Death plague.

[Carlin]

>Always in the late 12th century Kontostephanos was hunting "barbarian Vlachs who payed no taxes" through the mountains of Greece.

Would you be able to provide the source/author, or in which work this was found?

[Carlin]

I) ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΟΒΛΑΧΟΙ (ΑΡΜΑΝΟΙ) (ΔΕΥΤΕΡΟΣ ΤΟΜΟΣ), by ΕΞΑΡΧΟΣ ΓΙΩΡΓΗΣ (Exarchos Giorgis).

1) Pages 75 and 442 of this book:

"Gkopes was called a village in Patras region (in northern Peloponnese), for which a Venetian document of 1688, informs us that together with its neighbors Gkreveno and Mouriki, inhabited by Vlachs and Arvanites."

It is interesting that names of these villages bear the same/similar names as the villages/towns in Macedonia (i.e. Gkopes = Gopes, Gkreveno = Greveno = Grevena).

2) Furthermore, on page 456 of the same book:

P. Kanelidis (original source: Athinai 10 October 1887, f. 37, periodiko "Evdomas") on the populations of Mani and Taygetos - relates how Koutsovlachs and Arvanitovlachs came from Epirus and Macedonia, and were located further south in the Peloponnese almost before the installation of "Slavs" named Ezerites and Milingi.

3) Continuing with the same book, page 454:

Modern Peloponnesians are basically of Arvanite and Vlach ethnic ancestry but they deny it and don't want to hear anything about it. Quote from the page: "...Let us therefore know, today's Peloponnesians who do not want to hear anything of their Arvanite and Arvanitovlach origin..."

4) Page 459:

Vlachs from the Mt. Athos area were compelled by force to leave and settle in the Peloponnese.



II) Exact quote from Page 75, footnote 206 - Sokratis Liakos, "The origins of the Armonians (Vlachs)":

"Vlach word is preserved even today in the villages of Mesa Mani (= Inner Mani). From Maniot dictionary of Corsica also shows that before 1680 Maniates rescued many other Vlach words and verb forms, like: alafrunesko, meinesko, plithunesko, etc. Furthermore, names and surnames of Mani residents of the same period were pure Vlach".

Moreover, on page 111, footnote 304 we read:

"The inhabitants of mountain villages of the Peloponnese were alloy/blend of Orthodox (Christian) populations, which of course, confirms the existence of the Vlachs which arises from an order of the Venetians (1688), and from Mani songs that send out to the devil the Vlach language... Maniatiki call Vlachs not only the Arcadians but also part of Maniates."

Page 114:

"The fact that the nomadic shepherds of Peloponnese still continue to speak during the Revolution their Latino-Macedonian language (but at the same time Greek), although they lived there from at least 1700 (such as specifically the Tserginaioi) convinces us shamelessly that across Sterea Ellada (both eastern and western), Thessaly, Epirus and Macedonia it was impossible to exist during that period nomadic-shepherd homelands which could be exclusively Greek-speaking such as current Sarakatsianikes."

Bump.

- From Maniot dictionary of Corsica also shows that before 1680 Maniates rescued many other Vlach words and verb forms, like: alafrunesko, meinesko, plithunesko, etc. Furthermore, names and surnames of Mani residents of the same period were pure Vlach.

- Mani songs sent out to the devil the Vlach language.