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Old 01-04-2017, 08:28 AM   #11
Albo
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Well you could argue that as you say Serbias poor policies was the main reason for the violence in the first place?

Nobody goes to war ans risks their life if they don't believe what they are doing is warranted..

Most small countries exist today due to some form of violent rebelion agains a greater power as sometime or another (Even Macedonia) - so to simply say it's wrong to be rewarded because of violence is a little to simplified..

On your second point where you say Macedonia should be like Greece and not recognize Kosovo and it might not lose European support...

Seriously why would you take Greece's foreign policy as an example to be followed by anyone let alone Macedonia ??

Greece is the bankrupt laughing stock of Europe who will be slaves to their debt for decades to come.. They are a failed democracy who have very few positive examples to be followed by in the region...

If Greece and Cyprus weren't already in the EU - trust me the powers that be would have made them recognize Kosovo long ago..

As for your final point about the federalization of Macedonia..

This topic is consistently blasted over Macedonian media of late..
No Albanian party went to the election with a federalization policy or proposed any form or map of federalization..

YOU CAN'T DIVIDE OR FEDERALIZE MACEDONIA.. It's in nobody's interest and isn't supported by any superpower
If federalization was on offer..no side would agree on the dividing lines.. because the lines are overlapping and would require massive popullation movements- That nobody wants..

So again I don't see it as a viable or doable option... the threat of division was used and is used by vmro to create fear and uncertainty amongst the Macedonian population which would in turn be returned with votes..

Remember up to 70k Albanians voted for sdsm.. who will never accept any form of internal division..

I believe there is no need for any division if EU laws on local government funding are implemented...
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Old 01-04-2017, 09:01 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Albo View Post
Well you could argue that as you say Serbias poor policies was the main reason for the violence in the first place?
Don't mistake my words. Serbia reacted poorly in Kosovo. But speaking generally, the Albanians instigated it.

Quote:
Nobody goes to war ans risks their life if they don't believe what they are doing is warranted..
Yes. We've seen Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece and more recently Albanians go to war for their "greater ______" concepts. I'm sure they perceived it was warranted to kill others to accomplish their goals. But is it really?

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Most small countries exist today due to some form of violent rebelion agains a greater power as sometime or another (Even Macedonia) - so to simply say it's wrong to be rewarded because of violence is a little to simplified..
How does this justify the violence perpetrated by KLA in Kosovo and Macedonia?

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On your second point where you say Macedonia should be like Greece and not recognize Kosovo and it might not lose European support...
I did not say that.

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Seriously why would you take Greece's foreign policy as an example to be followed by anyone let alone Macedonia ??
I didn't say that. I simply said that Greece managed to not recognize Macedonia and still remained within the EU and faced no consequences.

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Greece is the bankrupt laughing stock of Europe who will be slaves to their debt for decades to come.. They are a failed democracy who have very few positive examples to be followed by in the region...
You could substitute Kosovo for Greece in the above statement, and throw in mafia-controlled government, and you'd have just as true of a statement.

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If Greece and Cyprus weren't already in the EU - trust me the powers that be would have made them recognize Kosovo long ago..
You make it seem like "EU" is the only stick/carrot in the Western Powers possession.


Quote:
This topic is consistently blasted over Macedonian media of late..
No Albanian party went to the election with a federalization policy or proposed any form or map of federalization..
The concept of the federalization of Macedonia has been growing since the OFA. Still, you only need to look back to the independence of Macedonia from Yugoslavia in the 1990s to see how the Albanians reacted and what they really wanted.


Quote:
So again I don't see it as a viable or doable option... the threat of division was used and is used by vmro to create fear and uncertainty amongst the Macedonian population which would in turn be returned with votes..
Sure, DPMNE capitalizes on people's fears. But peoples' fears are justified. Just look to the armed terrorist intrusion in 2001.

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Remember up to 70k Albanians voted for sdsm.. who will never accept any form of internal division..
Either you're naive or playing a game here...
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Old 01-04-2017, 09:58 AM   #13
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vicsinad
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Originally Posted by Albo View Post
Well you could argue that as you say Serbias poor policies was the main reason for the violence in the first place?
Don't mistake my words. Serbia reacted poorly in Kosovo. But speaking generally, the Albanians instigated it.

Ok it was all the Albanians fault.. so was Bosnia and Croatia..?
The reasons for the balkan wars of the 90s is seriously another totally different issue...

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Quote:
Nobody goes to war ans risks their life if they don't believe what they are doing is warranted..
Yes. We've seen Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece and more recently Albanians go to war for their "greater ______" concepts. I'm sure they perceived it was warranted to kill others to accomplish their goals. But is it really?
Well if you ask those involved, I'm sure they'll have an appropriate response for you.. but I'm sure most would say they would rather rule themselves than others rule them..

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Quote:
Most small countries exist today due to some form of violent rebelion agains a greater power as sometime or another (Even Macedonia) - so to simply say it's wrong to be rewarded because of violence is a little to simplified..
How does this justify the violence perpetrated by KLA in Kosovo and Macedonia?
Thats not what I was trying to do..

Weather the war was justified in Kosovo or Macedonia will always be a matter of opinion.. and how ones life was effected prior and post conflict..Some would be better off others not.. others are dead..

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On your second point where you say Macedonia should be like Greece and not recognize Kosovo and it might not lose European support...
I did not say that.

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Seriously why would you take Greece's foreign policy as an example to be followed by anyone let alone Macedonia ??

I didn't say that. I simply said that Greece managed to not recognize Macedonia and still remained within the EU and faced no consequences.
It's a totally different scenario... Greece was ALREADY in the EU and NATO..

They weren't gonna kick them out for not recognising Macedonia..
This is also where they gain the upper hand in the name issue.. if they weren't already members..the issue wouldn't exist today..


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Greece is the bankrupt laughing stock of Europe who will be slaves to their debt for decades to come.. They are a failed democracy who have very few positive examples to be followed by in the region...

You could substitute Kosovo for Greece in the above statement, and throw in mafia-controlled government, and you'd have just as true of a statement.
I never said that Kosovo is a model state that should be followed... its a new country with many problems that was left behind in terms of development be it socially educationally and infrastructure wise with the rest of the region...

Considering that it has managed to be on par if not close to other regional countries like Albania, Macedonia , Montenegro and Bosnia in many ways...

I dunno how many people here have been to Kosovo or follow it's development since the war ended in 1999..

But if compare it to the way it was prior the war .. it's unrecognizable... although corruption and criminality have hampered progress.. its nowhere near as bad as it was.

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Quote:
This topic is consistently blasted over Macedonian media of late..
No Albanian party went to the election with a federalization policy or proposed any form or map of federalization..
The concept of the federalization of Macedonia has been growing since the OFA. Still, you only need to look back to the independence of Macedonia from Yugoslavia in the 1990s to see how the Albanians reacted and what they really wanted.


Quote:
So again I don't see it as a viable or doable option... the threat of division was used and is used by vmro to create fear and uncertainty amongst the Macedonian population which would in turn be returned with votes..
Sure, DPMNE capitalizes on people's fears. But peoples' fears are justified. Just look to the armed terrorist intrusion in 2001.

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Remember up to 70k Albanians voted for sdsm.. who will never accept any form of internal division..
Either you're naive or playing a game here...
As for all these issues of federalization again.. I tell you its not an option..
How would you create this federal division..?
Where would you put the separation lines..?
What do you do with Skopje?

Its nit gonna happen or even be put on the table unless another war brakes out.. god forbid.. then nobody wins anything...

As I said EU modeled Decentralization laws will decrease the sounds of division.. which benefits nobody!
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Old 01-04-2017, 10:35 AM   #14
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Ok it was all the Albanians fault.. so was Bosnia and Croatia..?
The reasons for the balkan wars of the 90s is seriously another totally different issue...
I didn't suggest that. I did say that they did instigate in Kosovo. But I don't see the reasons for the Balkan Wars as totally different issues. In many ways, the Balkan Wars were a continuation of previous conflicts and tensions, flavored with certain issues facing modern times. The KLA/NLA issue in Macedonia and Kosovo is also a continuation of -- and related to -- those Balkan wars.


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Well if you ask those involved, I'm sure they'll have an appropriate response for you.. but I'm sure most would say they would rather rule themselves than others rule them..
So...is that how the Albanians treated the Serbs or Macedonians? Did they go to Serbian villages in Kosovo and say "hey, you can rule yourselves!" No -- they partook in intimidation and cleansing there.


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Weather the war was justified in Kosovo or Macedonia will always be a matter of opinion.. and how ones life was effected prior and post conflict..Some would be better off others not.. others are dead..
So then, Macedonians should reciprocate Albanian tactics? Macedonians in Bulgaria, Greece and Albania should pick up their guns and start killing people? Would that be justified? After all, since it will always be a matter of opinion and not facts and principles, then I guess I should be all in for burning Athens, Tirana and Sofia to the ground until Macedonian is made an official language throughout the entire Balkans, and until the Macedonian name and language and identity is recognized.


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It's a totally different scenario... Greece was ALREADY in the EU and NATO..
And they were rewarded by being allowed to remain. They were also rewarded by being allowed to join when they never recognized the Macedonian minority.

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They weren't gonna kick them out for not recognising Macedonia..
This is also where they gain the upper hand in the name issue.. if they weren't already members..the issue wouldn't exist today..
Actually, many EU members at the time did consider kicking Greece out of the EU. There's more to it then just being in the EU...


Quote:
As for all these issues of federalization again.. I tell you its not an option..
How would you create this federal division..?
Where would you put the separation lines..?
What do you do with Skopje?

Its nit gonna happen or even be put on the table unless another war brakes out.. god forbid.. then nobody wins anything...
Except the the KLA/NLA seem to think that war is always justified...or is that just a "matter of opinion..."?
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Old 01-04-2017, 01:00 PM   #15
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Well if you ask those involved, I'm sure they'll have an appropriate response for you.. but I'm sure most would say they would rather rule themselves than others rule them..

So...is that how the Albanians treated the Serbs or Macedonians? Did they go to Serbian villages in Kosovo and say "hey, you can rule yourselves!" No -- they partook in intimidation and cleansing there.
Look as to how and who was to blame for thr Kosovo/Macedonia wars is a question that can have many different answers defending on who you ask... Its a bit like asking what came first the chicken or the egg...

Had sides.been willing to use dialog and communication I believe wars such as the one in Macedonia could have been avoided...

All the rights gained by Albanians and other minorities in Macedonia due to the Ohrid Agreement could have all been granted through dialog and understanding... nothing that was granted is without precedent in many other multi-ethnic countries...

I ask you this question... which rights are you against when it comes to the Ohrid Agreement that you wouldn't agree to other Macedonian minority communities having in Greece Bulgaria and Albania..??

Would you say ...noooo we don't deserve out language to be official.. or noooo we don't want proportional representation in state institutions..??
..
Nooo we don't want the use of our symbols??

Quote:

Quote:
Weather the war was justified in Kosovo or Macedonia will always be a matter of opinion.. and how ones life was effected prior and post conflict..Some would be better off others not.. others are dead..

So then, Macedonians should reciprocate Albanian tactics? Macedonians in Bulgaria, Greece and Albania should pick up their guns and start killing people? Would that be justified? After all, since it will always be a matter of opinion and not facts and principles, then I guess I should be all in for burning Athens, Tirana and Sofia to the ground until Macedonian is made an official language throughout the entire Balkans, and until the Macedonian name and language and identity is recognized.
Well if Macedonians form large political parties and gain 25% of the seats in parliament and attempt to make Macedonian an official language and there calls keep falling on deaf ears.. have people who have spent years in jail as political prisoners, have a large section of your population forced to migrate, and feel as if you have zero prospect and future in your homeland .. then you could think about maybe some form of extreme action...

But Macedonians must not feel as if they they would be better off .. or that their lives are that hopeless to take any form of extreme action..

I don't think you can compare the situation and position that Albanians hold in Macedonia with other Macedonian communities in the region outside Macedonia...
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Old 01-04-2017, 07:52 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Albo View Post
All the rights gained by Albanians and other minorities in Macedonia due to the Ohrid Agreement could have all been granted through dialog and understanding... nothing that was granted is without precedent in many other multi-ethnic countries...

I ask you this question... which rights are you against when it comes to the Ohrid Agreement that you wouldn't agree to other Macedonian minority communities having in Greece Bulgaria and Albania..??
Dialog and understanding would have never achieved a situation where a minority can have final say on matters of cultural significance to Macedonians. I wouldn't agree to Macedonians in Greece having a final say in matters of Greek culture. How is that a reasonable outcome Albo?

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Originally Posted by Albo
Well if Macedonians ... EDIT ... have people who have spent years in jail as political prisoners, have a large section of your population forced to migrate, and feel as if you have zero prospect and future in your homeland .. then you could think about maybe some form of extreme action...
You are 100% correct. Macedonians should take extreme action.

So what is different here champ?
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Old 01-05-2017, 12:24 AM   #17
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Don't blame us for your failed Kosovo policies.

An infiltration of Kosovars into Macedonia after 1999 was the precurser to the 2001 problems in Western Macedonia and the framework agreement.

Milosovic failed and Macedonia had to pay.

How ironic is it now this moron is trying to call us up on the recognition.
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Old 01-05-2017, 04:11 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Albo View Post
All the rights gained by Albanians and other minorities in Macedonia due to the Ohrid Agreement could have all been granted through dialog and understanding... nothing that was granted is without precedent in many other multi-ethnic countries...

I ask you this question... which rights are you against when it comes to the Ohrid Agreement that you wouldn't agree to other Macedonian minority communities having in Greece Bulgaria and Albania..??

Dialog and understanding would have never achieved a situation where a minority can have final say on matters of cultural significance to Macedonians. I wouldn't agree to Macedonians in Greece having a final say in matters of Greek culture. How is that a reasonable outcome Albo?
Well I assume your talking about the 'Badintet Principal' ?
You would need to ask yourself why do you think that the experts ( both local and western) who drafted the Ohrid Agreement added this as a provision to the final agreement?

I agree that it can be misused at times by both sides...especially at a local level, but the idea is to protect minority grievances and issues that directly effect them from being out voted..

So the idea is that the majority can't dictate policy without any consensual decision-making with the minority directly effected. (Which has historically been a problem)
I don't see how you would not want this mechanism to protect ethnic Macedonian issues in surrounding countries.

Don't forget that Macedonians use this principle in municipalities where Albanians are a majority..

Eg.. There have been attempts by local councils in Tetovo,Gostivar,Struga,Cair ect to change old yugoslav communist era named streets and schools ..
But they haven't been able to be changed due to Macedonians using the badinter Principal.

I know in Tetovo that there was a list of new proposed names both Macedonian and Albanian which was being looked at which didn't contain any controversial figures, who were mainly names of people from Cultural ,Art and Sports background.. but the Macedonians in the council refused to pass the changes.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albo
Well if Macedonians ... EDIT ... have people who have spent years in jail as political prisoners, have a large section of your population forced to migrate, and feel as if you have zero prospect and future in your homeland .. then you could think about maybe some form of extreme action...

You are 100% correct. Macedonians should take extreme action.

So what is different here champ?
Well weather Macedonians take up extreme action it totally up to them..
But firstly I believe they need to make a louder noise and strengthen their political parties and organisations in order to draw attention to issues affecting them.

If you can't get a significant number of people to firstly protest (loudly) in Athens, Sofia or Tirana .. where are you going to find people who will take extreme action!
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Old 01-05-2017, 04:26 AM   #19
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Don't blame us for your failed Kosovo policies.

An infiltration of Kosovars into Macedonia after 1999 was the precurser to the 2001 problems in Western Macedonia and the framework agreement.

Milosovic failed and Macedonia had to pay.

How ironic is it now this moron is trying to call us up on the recognition.
I'm not blaming anyone for Kosovos development
They (Albanian Kosovars) are mostly to blame for slow progress

Latest groth figures place its gdp growing higher than most other balkan counties

https://seenews.com/news/kosovos-gdp...y-in-q3-552586

Also don't think you need to call me a moron , I haven't been disrespectful to you or anyone on here.

================================

Race for Run Govt Heats up in Macedonia

As the deadline for the formation of new government after December's election draws near, both the ruling and opposition parties have reiterated their determination to lead it.

Sinisa Jakov Marusic

Macedonia's President Gjorge Ivanov has until Monday to offer a mandate for the formation of a new government to one of two would-be prime ministers, VMRO DPMNE leader Nikola Gruevski or opposition Social Democrat chief Zoran Zaev.

The ruling VMRO DPMNE party, which won a narrow victory in the December 11 election, hopes the President will follow normal procedure and offer them the opportunity first.

"As soon as we get a mandate, we will start negotiations and will put maximum efforts into forming a government," VMRO DPMNE said on Monday.
"Our duty is to do everything in our power to realize the platform we promised to our voters."

According to the constitution, the prime ministerial candidate has 20 days after receiving the mandate to secure a majority of 61 in the 120-seat parliament. While the ruling party won 51 seats in the election, the opposition won 49, with a difference of only some 17,000 votes.

The opposition Social Democrats, SDSM, have hinted they might inform the President from Monday onwards that they have the necessary parliamentary support, which could in theory shorten the procedures for forming a new government.

"The parties that won over 600,000 votes in the elections will form the government," the party told BIRN, referring to the total number of votes that went to the opposition parties, which surpasses the 450,000 votes for VMRO DPMNE.

"Gruevski has no more political value; the majority of voters supported the opposition parties and opted for change," the SDSM said.

Both of the rivals aiming to run the new government, however, depend on the goodwill of ethnic Albanian parties, which won 20 seats in all.
The support of the Democratic Union for Integration, DUI, which won ten seats, could prove invaluable for any party seeking a majority.

Although some DUI members have hinted they would like to break their party's eight-year partnership with VMRO DPMNE, the party remains secretive about its intentions, saying only that its decisions will be based on the will of the voters.

"I have not met a single Albanian who said, 'Yes, we should make an alliance with Nikola Gruevski'. All Albanians I know are against such an alliance," DUI presidency member Nevzat Bejta told TV 21 in late December, after his party won only half the number the votes it won in the elections in 2014, which was widely seen as punishment for the alliance with Gruevski.

Gruevski repeats attacks on civil society

Meanwhile, in his New Year interview for Republika news site, published in two parts on Sunday and Monday, Gruevski again attacked civil society groups and the opposition for allegedly working against the Macedonian people.

In the interview, titled "Civil Sector Must Not Remain in the Hands of Soros," Gruevski accused US billionaire George Soros of financing "a modern army" of corrupt NGOs in Macedonia that has plotted to topple him.

"That is the reality and unfortunately that is how Soros works. Then they do what they want. They squash you and slam you. They will make you a criminal, a crook and a traitor, an idiot, incompetent and a monster - whatever they want," he said.

If he regained power, he said, he would boost government investment in a truly independent civil sector.

It was Gruevski's second attack on civil society groups in 20 days. During a speech made shortly after the December 11 election, he accused foreign ambassadors, NGOs and the opposition of plotting to steal his election victory.

"By criticizing the civil society, Gruevski in fact underlines his authoritarian nature and his constant search for domestic and foreign enemies," Bojan Maricic, head of the Macedonian Center for European Training, MCEO, an NGO, responded on Deutsche Welle.

Gruevski and his party associates face several investigations at the hands of the Special Prosecution, SJO, a body formed in 2015 to investigate high-level crime.

Although the ruling party initially supported the formation of the SJO, which was agreed at internationally brokered crisis talks in 2015, it has since accused the SJO of bias and of working under orders from the opposition.

- See more at: http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/arti....xkJlrc97.dpuf

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Old 01-05-2017, 05:56 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Albo View Post
I'm not blaming anyone for Kosovos development
They (Albanian Kosovars) are mostly to blame for slow progress

Latest groth figures place its gdp growing higher than most other balkan counties

https://seenews.com/news/kosovos-gdp...y-in-q3-552586

Also don't think you need to call me a moron , I haven't been disrespectful to you or anyone on here.
I think it was pretty clear that Stojacanec' post is in response to the Serbian FM article and not any of your ramblings, how bout you settle down a little cup cake, before you give credence to your own assertions
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