Pasko Kuzman promoting "Macedonian-Hellenistic period" - anti-Macedonian propaganda?

**Sovius** · 10-06-2009, 10:46 PM

The Samnitian Empire spread Romanism throughout Europe?

**I of Macedon** · 10-07-2009, 02:42 AM

this is not anti macedonian propaganda, this is nit picking, and what kuzman does is all for macedonia, its culture and its history

**Bratot** · 10-07-2009, 04:25 AM

Althout I would prefer if he used just Macedonistic era I don't see this as anti-macedonian propaganda.

Anyway I also have some reserve about the glorification of Kuzman personality

**Volk** · 10-07-2009, 08:24 AM

hellenistic is the term academics use, simply replacing it with Makedonistic makes us seam extremist can give credibility that we are trying to steal 'greek' history. This is simply a face that we have to live with, although I dont see internally why we can let go of everything 'helenistic'

**Risto the Great** · 10-07-2009, 04:05 PM

Hellenistic is EXTREMELY different from Hellenic.
If the foolish modern Greeks heard Macedonian or Macedonistic, they would argue how Greek it is. But the academics call it Hellenistic which clearly means it was not Hellenic. It is one the best proofs about the nature of the era.

**Dejan** · 10-07-2009, 05:34 PM

hellenistic doesn't mean hellenic

**indigen** · 10-07-2009, 07:42 PM

Gandeto: Macedonian history must be freed from the absurd Greek attachments

Macedonian history must be freed from the absurd Greek attachments

Gandeto
April 06, 2009

Recorded history, unlike any other discipline, suffers from intrusive erosion in objectivity. Due to its ingrained proclivity to allow intimate personal feelings to seep into its content, the final version thus produced is almost always colored by various degrees of subjective anomalies. The extent to which these external tendencies compromise the historical veracity of the content and contaminate the truth, will depend largely upon the employed degree of subjectivity.

To rectify these situations and avoid promulgation of residual historical inaccuracies—the sources for future potential troubles—periodic "truth-checks", like controlled forest fires, ought to be performed; the found misconceptions need to be redefined and recommended changes must be implemented.

But coming closer to that elusive creature called truth, is neither easy nor without sacrifices. Admittedly, it is a proven fact that it takes a lot more courage to acknowledge the errors of our ways than to continue to promote them. But start we must; somehow, somewhere—even with a few feeble kernels of hope at hand—we must, because not starting is not only unwise and dangerous with lasting calamitous consequences for our future generations who will inherit the mass, but it is also a sure sign of deliberate shortsightedness and an admission of cowardice.

And thus, I call upon the western intellectuals in general and the western philhellenes in particular to separate their personal sentimental attachments to Greek history, to do the only honorary thing left and treat Macedonia and Macedonian history as a separate and comprehensive study that it is, and that it certainly deserves to be. The conflicting statements left strewn in the literature in the past hundred or so years—are the result of biased and subjective influences—and have not only caused political discourse and confusion, but bring about contradictions, fuel tensions and cause unnecessary hateful speculations.

[....]

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http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/97381

**indigen** · 10-07-2009, 07:57 PM

Originally posted by Sovius View Post

The Samnitian Empire spread Romanism throughout Europe?

In my issue it is a political period (Macedonian rule, in MACEDONIA!) we are talking about and there are probably very few (if any) comparable situations we could find to effectively compare with today. Mongolia might be one such case (?).

The Romans waged three "MACEDONIAN WARS" to "LIBERATE" the "GREEKS" from the "MACEDONIAN YOKE"! I do NOT see any case for "Macedonian-Hellenistic" anything in the structure of the Macedonian state of the Antigonid Dynasty - IT WAS SIMPLY MACEDONIAN!

Cheers

**indigen** · 10-07-2009, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by Bratot View Post

Althout I would prefer if he used just Macedonistic era I don't see this as anti-macedonian propaganda.

Anyway I also have some reserve about the glorification of Kuzman personality

Brate, you should not just prefer "Macedonistic era" (Macedonian Era/Period might be even a better designation when talking about the Antigonid Dynasty ruling in Macedonia) but should INSIST - UNCOMPROMISINGLY!

Was it not this same Pasko who was in a TV duel a few months ago with Ljubche bugarcheto supposedly defending the position of Macedonian/Macedonistic era for the same period? From what I saw on A1 video clip excerpts, they were both more than pathetic. It would seem that L.G. "convinced" him to back off?! :-)

If memory serves me correctly, Pasko Kuzamn used to use the "Hellenistic" designation some 8 years ago (and most likely before and after that time) and turned off many right-thinking Macedonian patriots from ever considering him anything special or competent to represent/promote effectively our rich Macedonian heritage.

Cheers

**indigen** · 10-07-2009, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post

Hellenistic is EXTREMELY different from Hellenic.
If the foolish modern Greeks heard Macedonian or Macedonistic, they would argue how Greek it is. But the academics call it Hellenistic which clearly means it was not Hellenic. It is one the best proofs about the nature of the era.

RTG, I am a bit disappointed to hear this position coming from a Macedonian living in Australia!!! I would be even more disappointed if you were living here, as an adult, for the last 20 years or so and experienced the trials and tribulations of our community in that time!

Cheers

**Risto the Great** · 10-07-2009, 08:46 PM

Indigen, there is nothing to be disappointed about. You appear to be making the fundamental mistake that mentioning something like "Hellenistic" means it has something to do with modern Greeks. This is not the case and I certainly don't want to defend a stance like that. In other words, we could both be arguing over something even though we both agree with each other completely.

For 20 years before your 20 years of trial and tribulation, I have been suffering further attacks on my identity. I understand your anger.

**indigen** · 10-08-2009, 01:26 AM

Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post

Indigen, there is nothing to be disappointed about. You appear to be making the fundamental mistake that mentioning something like "Hellenistic" means it has something to do with modern Greeks. This is not the case and I certainly don't want to defend a stance like that. In other words, we could both be arguing over something even though we both agree with each other completely.

I will again quote Gandeto: "...Macedonian history must be freed from the absurd Greek attachments..." in order to clarify my point.

For those who posted for the benefit of my education about the meaning of "Hellenistic", I know what it means and encompasses and I reject its use in regards to anything relating to Macedonian/Macedonistic era/period - always!

As for the philosophical approach that "Hellenistic" (or anything relating to ancient "Greeks") does not mean it has something to do with modern Greeks, it is an old tactic of the "Slav" school of thought (SDS/Gligorov era argument) that did the rounds in the early 1990's and its worth is limited, IMO. It can be used to undermine Greek arrogance but it should never substitute Macedonian assertive action.

For 20 years before your 20 years of trial and tribulation, I have been suffering further attacks on my identity. I understand your anger.

I take my hat off to your long "stazh"/service for the community and I never said that I personally had 20 years of trials and tribulations (the Macedonian community certainly did, and I was able to observe and sometimes participate in its activities -1992-95). I am sorry for the anguish those personal attacks are causing you!

FYI: The book Among the barbarians / Paul Sheehan (1998) has a section detailing the proceedings of an anti discrimination court case lodged by a "Hellenic" Council (perhaps NSW?) against the "Macedonian Youth Organisation of Sydney" and may be worth a read. The case was lost but I don't think costs were awarded to the M.Y.O.S. and it dragged through the courts for many years.

Cheers

----------

Gandeto: “....There is no denying that the period from Alexander the Great until well into the Roman time deals with Macedonian Dynasties, their rule, succession and their eventual interaction, or lack there of, with the indigenous local populations throughout the Balkan Peninsula, Asia and Egypt. Here, the term "Hellenism" can hardly do any justice to historical scholarship since its coverage/ domain leaves a huge section of history barely touched. Hellenism, the term Johan Gustaf Droysen gave to this era, is such a narrow cultural belt of history that its usage is not only misleading and inappropriate but it also distorts and minimizes the greatness of the ancient Macedonians. Even though the Greek contribution, from a cultural point of view, may be argued to have occupied a place of pivotal importance in the administrative sector of the empire, the organizational, the military and the structural components of this Macedonian Empire must have been obtained, delivered and maintained strictly from Macedonian resources and for Macedonian interests. The concept of an empire, an esoteric notion for the Greeks, was born with the first few initial successes of Alexander, and its meaning, magnitude, scope and structure grew as the string of victories and the success on the battlefields allowed Alexander to enlarge, coordinate and control huge land areas in Asia and Egypt. For almost 3 centuries after Alexander, it was his successors that carried the symbols and the name of the Macedonian Empire. Thus, the very narrow strip of "Hellenism" that comes, as a residue, attached to the period in question, cannot, in any meaningful way, embrace and encompass the scope and the magnitude of an empire that was built, organized and maintained on the strength and the efficiency of the Macedonian army....”

Ancient Macedonians - Differences Between The
Ancient Macedonians and The Ancient Greeks
by J.S.G. Gandeto.

**UnitedForJohan** · 10-08-2009, 01:54 AM

macedonia

Macedonistic era.

It's good to be nationalist.

Don't concern yourself about what Greeks think of us, they are inferrior.

**Soldier of Macedon** · 10-08-2009, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by UnitedForJohan

Don't concern yourself about what Greeks think of us, they are inferrior.

What do you mean by 'inferior'?

Indigen, I don't think Pasko Kuzman has a deliberate intent to spread anti-Macedonian propaganda, if he wrote 'Macedonian-Hellenistic period' he may have intended to highlight the significance of both components. He could have phrased it a little differently, but your thread title can be perceived as misleading.

As there are no 'periods' popularly referred to as 'Romanistic' or 'Latinistic' in Europe, despite the widespread use of Latin in a similar manner and capacity as Koine, 'Hellenistic' is invalid if referred to as a 'period'. I therefore would agree that the 'Macedonian period' is a sufficient description on par with the 'Roman period', as the successor kingdoms (including Macedonia itself) that formed after the break-up of the Macedonian Empire were generally run by Macedonians in any case.

However, the 'Hellenistic' element that existed during that 'Macedonian period' cannot be disregarded altogether, which had, as Gandeto said:

.......a place of pivotal importance in the administrative sector of the empire......

Coins, documents and other such examples are precisely 'Hellenistic' rather than 'Hellenic' because Macedonians and other non-Hellenes were the majority of people that produced such evidence in Koine within the scope of administration, commerce and education. Such examples could then be argued to have predated and followed the Macedonian Empire, as Thracians, Romans and others also used elements of the Hellenes for the same reasons in many cases.

Pasko Kuzman promoting "Macedonian-Hellenistic period" - anti-Macedonian propaganda?

Pasko Kuzman promoting "Macedonian-Hellenistic period" - anti-Macedonian propaganda?

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