Ethnographic map of Macedonia - 2010

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  • Mastika
    Member
    • Feb 2010
    • 503

    Ethnographic map of Macedonia - 2010

    Contrary to the belief of many of our neighbours, Macedonian communities do exist in their borders. I have created an ethnographic map of Macedonia to basically show people which ethnic groups live where. The map covers the Republic of Macedonia, Aegean Macedonia, Gora, Golo Brdo, Mala Prespa, some of Pirin Macedonia and Prohor Pcinjski.

    *Because of it's large size I have had to post it in seperate parts roughly corresponding with the maps with some overlap.

    Macedonia - Македонија



    Mavrovo-Debar-Ohrid



    Skopje-Prilep-Bitola



    Stip-Strumica-Kriva Palanka



    Pirin Macedonia



    Kavala-Drama



    Prespa-Kozani-Grevena



    Gevgelija-Voden-Ber



    Solun-Salonica



    (Alternatively you should be able to acess the maps through this link [http://img6.imageshack.us/i/stipstrumica.jpg/] )

    If you cannot see the key (it is in the Chalcidice map) then it is Red for Macedonians, Blue for Greeks, Orange for Macedonian Muslims, Light Green for Albanians, Bright Pink for Turks, Gold/Yellow for Aromanians/Megleno-Romanians, Olive for Serbs, Mauve for Bosniaks, Cyan for Romani, Green for Bulgarians and Black is for others. An “X” just means that the village (to the best of my knowledge) has no inhabitants, and thus no ethnic group is present.

    Small circles are designated for villages and overlapping circles indicate that more then one ethnic group is present in the village. Three means that three are. I have only included the ethnicity of the minority population in the village if they comprised of roughly at least 10-20% of the population there. For small towns I have included a block of 4 squares and have been reserved for towns with roughly 5,000-15,000 inhabitants (some villages are over this 5,000 mark but have been still marked with a circle as they are not yet considered to be a town on their own). Cities are denoted by 9 squares or in the case of Skopje and Solun with many squares roughly in the shape of the city. Again, minority populations have only been depicted in cities if they are above the threshold of roughly 1 in 4 (small/medium towns) or 1/9 (cities).

    I was unable to attain an entire village-by-village map of Macedonia, so I have had to piece together what I could from 2 different sources. Both are old, the paler one is from the early 20th century and still has the original village names whilst the less pale one is slightly newer (1940s) and is more resemblant of the Macedonia many of us are familiar with.

    I acknowledge now that the map is not 100%, I probably have made some form or error along the way especially with the colours. Also my sources have been varied so I have been forced to work with the best material I was able to access, most of which I do not agree with eg. Vasil Kanchov etc. . If you do notice something about your own home village or one which you know definately know about, which is not 100% correct, please let me know so that I can fix it up. I also noticed that I have forgotten some villages on the map due to the lack of resources in some areas, so please do let me know about the correct population to add. I have left out most of Pirin Macedonia, firstly because of the lack of village by village census data and secondly due to the lack of information to tell me which villages were pro-Macedonian (Macedonian) and which were pro-Bulgarian (Bulgarian), given that many people who see themselves as ethnically Macedonian wrote Bulgarian in the last census and people who we would see as ethnically Macedonian in fact see themselves as ethnically Bulgarian. For the Macedonian Muslims villages which were writing down “Turkish”, “Albanian”, “Bosnian” etc. in the census data I have adjusted this based on other sources telling me of a more accurate description of the local population, eg. Labunista, Struga.

    What I will probably be quizzed on the most. What were my sources?
    Here is a list of many of the sources from where I got my information.

    - Census of Population, Households and Dwellings in the Republic of Macedonia, 2002
    - Населените Места Во Егејска Македонија. Тодор Симовски.
    - Васил Кънчов. „Македония. Етнография и статистика“
    - Riki Van Boeschoten. "Usage des langues minoritaires dans les départements de Florina et d’Aridea (Macédoine) [http://strates.revues.org/document381.html]
    - Κατάλογος των προσφυγικών συνοικισμών της Μακεδονίας
    σύμφωνα με τα στοιχεία της Επιτροπής Αποκαταστάσεως Προσφύγων (ΕΑΠ)
    έτος 1928 [http://www.freewebs.com/onoma/eap.htm]
    - Σπύρος Λουκάτος, Πολιτειογραφία της νομαρχιακής περιφέρειας της Θεσσαλονίκης, Μέρος Α’ Υποδιοικήσεις Βερροίας - Θεσσαλονίκης – Κατερίνης, Αθήνα 1987.
    - ETHNIC BULGARIANS IN MALA PRESPA AND GOLO BRDO Tanya Mangalakova 2004
    - Local village/town websites
    - And other information which is readily found on the internet and also many small extracts from books pertainting to the village in question.


    Hopefully after all of this clarification the map and process behind it is clear. Feel free to ask me any questions about it. I have really tried to be scientific with the data, however I have had some problems getting access to where many Aromanians and Armenians were re-settled across Aegean Macedonia.

    Hopefully everyone will be able to help improve the map.
    Last edited by Mastika; 05-05-2010, 08:45 AM. Reason: adding newer edited versions of images.
  • Rogi
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 2343

    #2
    What are the chances of getting this all in one image? If it's too big, I can upload it for you somewhere, or provide you with some details to upload it somewhere, but it's a lot less confusing and it will have much more of a visual appeal if we can have it as one image.

    If you cannot make it one image, or do not have one full image with all villages, then I have a large map at home (2 meters by 1.5 meters which includes all of Macedonia and all of its villages), I may be able to scan it piece by piece and put it all together in Photoshop - when I find the time.


    Side note: Mastika, can you confirm that you are/were crvena.zvezda on the Maknews forum?
    Last edited by Rogi; 04-22-2010, 09:14 AM.

    Comment

    • osiris
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 1969

      #3
      mastika what era do the maps represent are they post prosfygy

      one of my neighbours is from katerini and maintains there village has been greek speaking since the 1400s at least.

      i am not sure who the greek speaking people of macedonia were, from many of the documents presented on here we have seen that many of the so called greeks were albanian vlach speakers well into the late 19th century.



      what i wonder is how those people would have felt if there had not been an establishment of a greek state in 1824 would they have thought of themselves as elinas or makedonas.
      Last edited by osiris; 04-22-2010, 09:30 AM.

      Comment

      • Daskalot
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 4345

        #4
        Mastika send me the picture at my email, if needed zip the file and split it in 5MB parts.
        Macedonian Truth Organisation

        Comment

        • Mastika
          Member
          • Feb 2010
          • 503

          #5
          Originally posted by Rogi View Post
          What are the chances of getting this all in one image? If it's too big, I can upload it for you somewhere, or provide you with some details to upload it somewhere, but it's a lot less confusing and it will have much more of a visual appeal if we can have it as one image.

          If you cannot make it one image, or do not have one full image with all villages, then I have a large map at home (2 meters by 1.5 meters which includes all of Macedonia and all of its villages), I may be able to scan it piece by piece and put it all together in Photoshop - when I find the time.


          Side note: Mastika, can you confirm that you are/were crvena.zvezda on the Maknews forum?
          Rogi, I have been working with a program called Inkscape which uses .svg files. An exported .png file from that was 160MB's. So I have had to gradually compress it. The 25MB version which is posted the beggining has OK resolution for me on my computer, however on photobucket a 25MB version isnt posted so basically the resolution is very crap. Image shack only lets you upload under 5MB, a 5MB is way to blurry to upload. If you know of somewhere where larger files can be uploaded I can email you the file (I dont know how big an attachment on email can go, so most probably I will have to do that myself). I agree with you that it works better together.

          I do not know who Crvena Zvezda is. I guess I can't confirm it.

          Osiris, the pale maps are roughly 1900 and have only the local/older names whereas the 'brighter' ones are from the 60s (I think) and have more modernised + hellenised names printed. Umm about your second point, because this isn't a historical ethnic map it wont show the exact boundaries between ethnic groups, especially since the Pontic Greek mass arrivals in the place of the Muslims. However there were 3 main Greek settled areas 100 years ago (Grevena/Katerina, The Halkidik and Kavala areas), apparently to the rest of the world it gave Greece the right to 51% of Macedonia!? I would suggest have a look at historical map, pre-1900ish.

          Comment

          • Mastika
            Member
            • Feb 2010
            • 503

            #6
            Originally posted by osiris View Post
            what i wonder is how those people would have felt if there had not been an establishment of a greek state in 1824 would they have thought of themselves as elinas or makedonas.
            They probably thought of themselves as hristianos.

            Comment

            • Prolet
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2009
              • 5241

              #7
              Rogi, CZ has been gone for a long time now what made you ask that? I think he had a fall out with Maknews.
              МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

              Comment

              • Rogi
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 2343

                #8
                Mastika was quoting the same sources that I've seen crvena.zvezda quote and swear by a few times before (particularly the Vasil Kanchov Bulgarian source).


                This map will take some time to look at it propertly though from a quick look, I would dispute some of the villages around Negush (Naoussa) and some east of Ber (Veroia), there are more Macedonians than is being shown.

                Also, in the Bitola map, which shows Lerin and others, it is showing the city Kaljari (Ptolemaida) as being all Greeks. Granted, it is heavily populated by Prosfygi, but there is still a substantial, or at least notable Macedonian population (I met priests, teachers, musicians and quite a few students who had just come back from their studies, who were all Macedonians) and the villages south-east of Kaljari have more Macedonians than is being shown.
                Last edited by Rogi; 04-22-2010, 10:40 AM.

                Comment

                • TrueMacedonian
                  Banned
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 3823

                  #9
                  What about Pirin? The majority of Pirin is Macedonian. How can you be certain about your own accuracies in map-making Crvena Mastika? Stick to making believe you're a Macedonian. You're doing a bad job on that as it is.

                  Comment

                  • Daskalot
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 4345

                    #10
                    Pirin needs to be entered.

                    here is why the Greek side of the border is so blue......

                    Macedonian Truth Organisation

                    Comment

                    • Makedonetz
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2010
                      • 1080

                      #11
                      Mastika great maps and information!

                      Out of curiosity? do you have a general number of how many macedonians still are in the mala prespa area? my fathers villiage was adbandoned with detca belgaci but my babo has a brother that still lives in the basement of my fathers house.
                      Makedoncite se borat
                      za svoite pravdini!

                      "The one who works for joining of Macedonia to Bulgaria,Greece or Serbia can consider himself as a good Bulgarian, Greek or Serb, but not a good Macedonian"
                      - Goce Delchev

                      Comment

                      • TrueMacedonian
                        Banned
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 3823

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Makedonetz View Post
                        Mastika great maps and information!

                        Out of curiosity? do you have a general number of how many macedonians still are in the mala prespa area? my fathers villiage was adbandoned with detca belgaci but my babo has a brother that still lives in the basement of my fathers house.
                        Here's another refugee making believe he's a Macedonian. You guys must be bored these days

                        Comment

                        • Makedonetz
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2010
                          • 1080

                          #13
                          sorry im macedonian

                          I have family in Bitola & Tetovo but my father was born in Mala prespa why would my dad and mom taken away form their homes not be macedonian? my uncle who stayed and the greeks brainwashed him is he more macedonian then myself?
                          Makedoncite se borat
                          za svoite pravdini!

                          "The one who works for joining of Macedonia to Bulgaria,Greece or Serbia can consider himself as a good Bulgarian, Greek or Serb, but not a good Macedonian"
                          - Goce Delchev

                          Comment

                          • Onur
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2010
                            • 2389

                            #14




                            I think this map shows the settlement of Anatolian refugees to the Greece and as you see, %90 of them settled to Thrace and Aegean Macedonia.






                            This was the reason of this settlement plan as explained by Venizelos himself at October 1922. One year before the population exchange agreement with Turkey;



                            "Eleftherios Venizelos: the trials of statesmanship" by Paschalis Kitromilides







                            Just one more step to create ethnically Greek populated Aegean Macedonia for the devil named Venizelos, even if it causes the suffering of 1.700.000 people at population exchange. Maybe more than half of Anatolian refugees wasn't Greek at all. Most of them couldn't even speak Greek but they were easy target for assimilation.


                            P. S : The frustrating thing is, now the children of these refugees blames Turkish people for that and they say we forced them to go away from Turkey. How fair is that?
                            Last edited by Onur; 04-22-2010, 03:43 PM.

                            Comment

                            • Daskalot
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 4345

                              #15
                              Originally posted by mail2onur View Post




                              I think this map shows the settlement of Anatolian refugees to the Greece and as you see, %90 of them settled to Thrace and Aegean Macedonia.






                              This was the reason of this settlement plan as explained by Venizelos himself at October 1922. One year before the population exchange agreement with Turkey;



                              "Eleftherios Venizelos: the trials of statesmanship" by Paschalis Kitromilides







                              Just one more step to create ethnically Greek populated Aegean Macedonia for the devil named Venizelos, even if it causes the suffering of 1.700.000 people at population exchange. Maybe more than half of Anatolian refugees wasn't Greek at all. Most of them couldn't even speak Greek but they were easy target for assimilation.


                              P. S : The frustrating thing is, now the children of these refugees blames Turkish people for that and they say we forced them to go away from Turkey. How fair is that?
                              Onur, thank you for the quote from Venizelos.
                              Macedonian Truth Organisation

                              Comment

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