Ventilator

[Bill77]

Both sides need to take a hard look at them selves. (its a shame that i can use the word "sides")

Until we swallow our pride and admit our faults, we will always have this divided mentality.

[Risto the Great]

Risto,

quite frankly, you will not leave Australia and come to Macedonia to fight, but you expect others to do it.

Yet you think of making a point with skipping my question by making another question insinuating more degradation for Macedonians of RoM.

Let me ask, who do you think Macedonian army and police forces consist of?

Also the number speculations are available on the internet if that will serve your point.

Bratot, I expect Macedonians in Macedonia to do it FIRST. If they don't they are piss weak Macedonians. I know not all of them are piss weak. I also know that Macedonia would not have the problems it is having now if LESS were piss weak.

If Macedonia rose as one to even write something in their streets about the degradation they have been put through. That would be awesome.

So I am asking for a public register (by Macedonians ... in Macedonia) of discontent about the treatment of Macedonians in the world arena. Do you think some guys could keep out of their kafani long enough to wave a (real) flag around for a few minutes? You do understand that protesting is quite a reasonable phenomena in developed countries. Why nothing? Are the 30% unemployed too busy to do it? Surely they have a grievance or two.

But you think I want them to go to a nuclear war while I hide under a bunker in the other hemisphere. Grow up.

Again, tell me how many Macedonian civilians in Macedonia defended Macedonia in 2001. I only found out it was a "war" last year, you will have to excuse my ignorance.

[Risto the Great]

At the end of the day, the opposing argument is summarised as follows:

Macedonians in the Diaspora won't come here to fight our fight.
Who are they to tell us what flag we should hold dear?
We want the new flag even though the Greeks made us have it.

What do you disagree with Bratot? You are asking me to be sympathetic on this issue?

[The LION will ROAR]

Risto,

quite frankly, you will not leave Australia and come to Macedonia to fight, but you expect others to do it.

Yet you think of making a point with skipping my question by making another question insinuating more degradation for Macedonians of RoM.

Let me ask, who do you think Macedonian army and police forces consist of?

Also the number speculations are available on the internet if that will serve your point.

Bratot, every time I had visited Macedonia I would get asked if there is a WAR in Macedonia would you come and fight..
Well my last response to one guy was..
"Why would I when I had cousins and people I knew that were hiding so they won't go during the Civil war in 2001, Another cousin who was crying like a baby to come back home whilst he was just a driver for a captain during the War ..
So my answer to him was no when there is heaps of Cowards and refusing to defend their country…Why would I
Another thing If the Australian Government finds out that you went to fight for another country, then Australia will not accept you back..

[Bratot]

Bratot, I expect Macedonians in Macedonia to do it FIRST. If they don't they are piss weak Macedonians. I know not all of them are piss weak. I also know that Macedonia would not have the problems it is having now if LESS were piss weak.

If Macedonia rose as one to even write something in their streets about the degradation they have been put through. That would be awesome.

So I am asking for a public register (by Macedonians ... in Macedonia) of discontent about the treatment of Macedonians in the world arena. Do you think some guys could keep out of their kafani long enough to wave a (real) flag around for a few minutes? You do understand that protesting is quite a reasonable phenomena in developed countries. Why nothing? Are the 30% unemployed too busy to do it? Surely they have a grievance or two.

But you think I want them to go to a nuclear war while I hide under a bunker in the other hemisphere. Grow up.

Again, tell me how many Macedonian civilians in Macedonia defended Macedonia in 2001. I only found out it was a "war" last year, you will have to excuse my ignorance.

I have to disagree again, it's not me the one that need to grow up.

Macedonians are degraded on a international level, including particularly Macedonians in Australia.
Should I hold you accountable for the failure of your protest against the treatment of Australian government and question your "Macedonianess"?

I would gladly discuss the 'protesting' phenomena with you, after you answer on my reply to you from the other thread:

Risto,

how do you imagine the rising?

Even in ancient times, there were leaders and committees that organised and prepared the people.

Under Turkish yoke as well.

We need organisation and finances to respond adequatelly on those threats, we can not simply expect some global inner impuls of telepathy to rise up every Macedonian and bring them on the streets.

We can't battle anything successfully without unpolluted & welthy organisation to protect our interests.

...

see more

http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=79285#post79285

Risto, lets be gentlments and respect the precedence of questions.

Don't be smallminded for the terminology or that is the best you could possibly pull out to skip the initial argument.

Here is something to speculate with:

Според генералот Панде Петровски, кој командувал со арачиновската операција, АРМ располагала со околу 20.000 војници со оклопни батаљони и професионални екипажи, 54 тенка, со 120-130 минофрлачи, хеликоптери за воени дејства и доволно количество муниција за извршување на една завршна операција и целосно разбивање на ОНА.

http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%84%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D1%82_%D0%B2%D0%BE_%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0,_2001

Lets take this one as a reliable source for the numbers, but they are related only to the operation in Arachinovo.

ARM in 2001 had total capacity of 12.000 regular soldiers from all cathegories situated through whole conflict area and the rest of Macedonian territory plus those on a peacekeeping missions in Iraq, Afghanistan or Bosnia.

Now I let you speculate the numbers of volounteers.

[Bratot]

Bratot, every time I had visited Macedonia I would get asked if there is a WAR in Macedonia would you come and fight..
Well my last response to one guy was..
"Why would I when I had cousins and people I knew that were hiding so they won't go during the Civil war in 2001, Another cousin who was crying like a baby to come back home whilst he was just a driver for a captain during the War ..
So my answer to him was no when there is heaps of Cowards and refusing to defend their country…Why would I
Another thing If the Australian Government finds out that you went to fight for another country, then Australia will not accept you back..

TLWR,

I want you to understand that my purpose is not to question you as a Diaspora, but to highlight the constant slandering of Macedonians from the republic.

I have been critical to them on many issues , but I don't accept humiliation and respectless arogancy toward them.

If every such discussion is made to 'show balls' than lets talk with 'hard' facts, lets put them on the table.

It's dissapointing to see the wasting of time on such issues, but maybe sometimes it is better to see all that comes out of the laundry.

[Soldier of Macedon]

What is there to be explained which is not clear?

I don't think you understood my question, or my point, namely, that you speak against generalisations yet make them yourself. Ironic.

How about leaving the double standard and egocentric position when discussing about these matters?

What double standards? Who is egocentric, and how? What are you talking about?

[Risto the Great]

OK Bratot, you want me to answer a question on another thread because I am small minded about something on this thread.

I find your approach to this matter pathetic, you have divorced right and wrong from a completely separate issue.

If I follow your logic, it would mean you are against the AMHRC/MHRMI recent advertising campaign in Macedonia. How dare the Macedonian Diaspora tell Macedonians in Macedonia what to do.

how do you imagine the rising?

I imagine the rising starting at little levels fueled by the growing discontent of Macedonians. For example, when a referendum occurs, the Macedonians register their discontent. They oppose the attacks on Macedonia's sovereignty. They did not do this.

You want Australian Macedonians to start up an organisation to tell them what they already know is wrong? You are suggesting Macedonians in Macedonia are malleable and they can be encouraged to go against their natural will. I am not so sure. All I want is for them to express their will as publicly and as often as they can.

In this thread, I want to battle the apathy associated with the current flag. Your best response is effectively "go to war over there, then tell them what flag they should have". There is right and there is wrong. If I spend 1 million dollars to set up my "dream team" of lobbyists, we (apparently) need to agree first that the flag (amongst other things) is wrong. Then we need to convince the Macedonians in Macedonia of this.

If you tell me the flag is wrong (and I cannot remember if this is the case anymore) then you are saying I am not allowed to tell anyone how I feel about it unless I am from Macedonia. Very elitist approach. Do I need a Yugoslav tattoo from the army days as well before I am really qualified to comment? Think about it what it means to a Macedonian from anywhere and what should be non-negotiable. It is every Macedonian's duty to remind every Macedonian of this.

On the "war":
20,000 soldiers does not account for ??? 800,000 other male Macedonians in Macedonia. But let's not discuss the "war" in 2001 because nobody knew it was a war, including me.

[Bratot]

Indeed, I didn't understand your point until now.

I believe I've answered adequately on the generalisation.

The irony may be that you failed to react to the previous generalisation.

The following applies for the posts of the other 3 members I cited before:

The term double standard, coined in 1912,[1] refers to any set of principles containing different provisions for one group of people than for another, typically without a good reason for having said difference.[2] A double standard may take the form of an instance in which certain concepts (often, for example, a word, phrase, social norm, or rule) are perceived as acceptable to be applied by one group of people, but are considered unacceptable—taboo—when applied by another group.


Egocentrism - the tendency to perceive, understand and interpret the world in terms of the self

It's not hard to notice both of them in the attitude of few Diaspora members.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The irony may be that you failed to react to the previous generalisation.

Which one?

[Bratot]

OK Bratot, you want me to answer a question on another thread because I am small minded about something on this thread.

I find your approach to this matter pathetic, you have divorced right and wrong from a completely separate issue.

If I follow your logic, it would mean you are against the AMHRC/MHRMI recent advertising campaign in Macedonia. How dare the Macedonian Diaspora tell Macedonians in Macedonia what to do.


I imagine the rising starting at little levels fueled by the growing discontent of Macedonians. For example, when a referendum occurs, the Macedonians register their discontent. They oppose the attacks on Macedonia's sovereignty. They did not do this.

You want Australian Macedonians to start up an organisation to tell them what they already know is wrong? You are suggesting Macedonians in Macedonia are malleable and they can be encouraged to go against their natural will. I am not so sure. All I want is for them to express their will as publicly and as often as they can.

In this thread, I want to battle the apathy associated with the current flag. Your best response is effectively "go to war over there, then tell them what flag they should have". There is right and there is wrong. If I spend 1 million dollars to set up my "dream team" of lobbyists, we (apparently) need to agree first that the flag (amongst other things) is wrong. Then we need to convince the Macedonians in Macedonia of this.

If you tell me the flag is wrong (and I cannot remember if this is the case anymore) then you are saying I am not allowed to tell anyone how I feel about it unless I am from Macedonia. Very elitist approach. Do I need a Yugoslav tattoo from the army days as well before I am really qualified to comment? Think about it what it means to a Macedonian from anywhere and what should be non-negotiable. It is every Macedonian's duty to remind every Macedonian of this.

I might get a feeling you reply to some other person since 90% of your post consist things I haven't said nor suggested.

If you failed to register my concern:

I didn't wanted to get involved in this discussion from the reasons that Makedonin already mentioned, and while I'm willing to comply with the arguments against the current state flag I can't stand such slanderous discussion and disrespect for our people.

You only think you battle apathy while unconsciously you support the animosity among us as by-product of the ill-communication skills of other members.

I hardly imagine you could possibly succeed in your intention with labelling the majority of Macedonians.

No effect!

On the "war":
20,000 soldiers does not account for ??? 800,000 other male Macedonians in Macedonia. But let's not discuss the "war" in 2001 because nobody knew it was a war, including me.

Look at that, you waited for this moment to highlight how miserable are we?

This is so encouraging Risto, I will a special bond betweeen both groups of Macedonians now.

Just for a info, the number of capable men for military service is not made of the total male population, but anyway let it serve for you.

The numbers previously given show that 1/2 of the available forces in 2001 were volounteers.

[Risto the Great]

OK Bratot, you are against the current flag but will not tell Macedonians in Macedonia about it.

I will disrespect Macedonians who stand in the way of human rights. In fact, they are my enemy. How about you, how will you treat them?

[Makedonska_Kafana]

I will disrespect Macedonians who stand in the way of human rights. In fact, they are my enemy.

Here here

Same happened to our brothers and sister in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania and many today salute their new masters. Where would they draw the line because it NEVER ends with those out to wipe us out completely.

[Vangelovski]

Bratot,

Please specifically demonstrate the "egocentrism" and "double standard" in my posts seeing as you have included me in your generalisation.

[Lion of Macedon]

To all the wankers who are having a cry over a disgusting articial flag that does not represent a macedonian in any way but infact insults us, it carrys on the filthy deeds of pure communits traitors who have slept with the enemy in order for a quick pay check can go and dig your self a fucking hole!